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Are great plains ratsnakes anerythristic? (pics)

vanderkm

vanderkm

New member
Some confusion over whether the wild color type of great plains ratsnake is anerythristic or not. I thought they behaved genetically like a normal corn but their appearance just didn't have the intensity of red/orange/yellow that appears in anery corns. Anyone know for sure?

Also, these photos are of a 3 year old we purchased as a Great plains ratsnake - any opinions on whether it is typical or if it looks like it might be a charcoal corn or cross of some type? It is about 42 inches long, has no yellow on the chin and probes at 4 scales so not sure if male or female. Know it could be hard to distinguish based on appearance alone, but thought someone might have an opinion.

thanks,

mary v.

63Crockett_a_reduced.jpg


63Crockett_reduced.jpg


63Crockett_b_reduced.jpg
 
Normal west texas emoryi

Emoryi(great plains rats) are seperate from cornsnakes, but they are the closest relatives to the cornsnake. There are a few morphs for emoryi that are seperate from corns. One form of amel, two forms of hypo, stripes, reverse stripes and a melanistic(choclate) phase of emoryi. Great plains rats are not anery corns....but they do look it.

Luke
 
If it only probes at a depth of 4 scales, I would say you have a female. I am sorry, I can't offer any help on the genetics of a great plains rat snake. I've not had any experience with them.
 
Although anerythristic just means lacking red pigment I have a problem with people calling ALL snakes that lack red pigment anerys. I think only snakes that exibit the recessive mutation for anerythristic should be called anerythristic. Otherwise tons of wild type snakes could be called anery...like Califorina king snakes, glossy snakes and many Great plains rat snakes.
I have had a few emoryis in the past and most (but not all) lacked any red pigment...some would have a single orange/red scale here and there. But since they don't have the recessive anerythristic gene that removes ALL red pigment they should not be called anerys. Does anyone else agree?
Also, just because you can't see the red pigment does not mean it is not there. Sometimes the red pigment is under another pigment. For example I have seen black rat snakes that were het for amelanistic that showed no red at all....But their albino babies showed a ton of red because the black pigment was removed. This is why ONLY snakes that have the recessive anery gene can rightly be called anerythristic.
Btw...I can tell from the sharply tappering tail that yours is a female.
 
I appreciate the additional information. It was my understanding that they were not anery and should be treated as a normal corn in doing breeding calculations, but it is nice to have that confirmed.

General impression from others we have shown the photos to is that it is a Great Plains ratsnake and not a corn cross but I didn't have much confidence in the source we bought from (as a hatchling when it didn't matter as much to us what it was - just thought it was a neat looking snake!) While we would not represent it as a Great Plains Ratsnake because we cannot be completely sure, it is nice to know that is what it resembles,'

thanks,

mary v.
 
Mary, I'm 99% sure that is a pure Great plains rat. I see no corn influence at all. I have had wild caughts that looked just like yours....right down to the stripe on the neck and the broken dorsal blotch about 18 blotches down (very common for Great plains.) But Great plains can differ quite a bit between those in the southern part of their range and those from the northern part of their range. I had one beautiful female I purchased from the late great Lloyde Lemke that could even have been called green. I'm not 100% sure but if I remember right he said the parents to his "greenish" emoryi were wild caughts from south Texas.
 
Thanks Natasha,

Interesting that the pattern looks quite typical. Also interesting that there are greenish ones out there - would be neat to see.

mary v.
 
Ratsnakes

ok, here it goes and I know this is a bit off topic but is there a difference just between cornsnakes and normal rat snakes? I know cornsnakes are elphae guatta guatta...(what is the new name?) and I always thought the normal rat snake was emoryi? The reason I'm asking is b/c my manager thinks that rat snakes and cornsnakes are the exact same... and I always thought there was a difference. thanks Beautiful snake by the way!

Kristy
 
Most people refer to Elaphe obsoleta as the normal or common ratsnake, Elaphe emoryi as the Great plains ratsnake and Elaphe guttata as the red rat or cornsnake. They are all rat snakes but different species.
Actually, recent DNA studies have broken obsoleta into four species and emoryi into several groups....but this is just the simple answer so I won't bore you with all that.
 
Natasha said:
Actually, recent DNA studies have broken obsoleta into four species and emoryi into several groups....but this is just the simple answer so I won't bore you with all that.
Click to expand...

Actually, I would like to know where you got your info from. I am looking for a place to do some DNA testing on some of my snakes. I have no idea where to start looking for a lab that has the ability to help me. Any help would be appreciated.
 
Oh yeah..and btw the new scientific name for the cornsnake is Pantherophis guttatus. There are no subspecies. Better get use to it because it is in favor and looks like it will be accepted.
 
Hi Natasha

So does emory has a full species designation with the new classification proposed? I thought it and corns were considered subspecies. I take it from your comment that it will no longer be considered a subspecies so creamsicles would now be a hybrid rather than an intergrade.

thanks,

mary v.
 
vanderkm...

Here is another thread regarding the scientific name: http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8977&highlight=scientific

It has a post in it (by Darin Chappell) that answers your question...
It's actually simply Pantherophis guttata. There has been a push toward splitting the Pantherophis emoryi off as a completely separate species rather than as a subspecies of guttata (thereby making all creamsicles into overnight hybrids instead of merely intergrades!). Therefore, there is only the species guttata, and no subspeices delineation necessary.

However, the final analysis has not yet been set forth, and one supposes things can (and probably will) change some more. Hope that helps a bit.
Click to expand...

There is also a bit more info in the thread as well.

Natasha,
Thanks for the link to the paper! I appreciate it!
 
Your welcome CornCrazy:)

Boy, this thread has really strayed from the original post :)

For what ever it's worth (nothing) I think the Pantherophis change will stick...and I agree (mostly) with its conclusions.
But I think the Burbrink paper on obsoleta is way off base on many levels and will be rejected.
 
Thanks yet again Natasha - that makes it clearer - I somehow missed that thread. I agree that the change in name makes sense. Still haven't finished reading the obseleta study.

mary v.
 
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