Improving second clutches?

[Silvergrin]

I have a pretty amazing snow girl, who last year laid two clutches of 18 and then 14 eggs, this year she laid 27 eggs (24 of which were good and have all hatched out now), and I just got her 2nd clutch of 19 eggs... all of which I look bad. I put them in the incubator anyway, but they're very small and discolored and what not.

I think it may be a case of her body just not having enough resources to make good eggs. I've been trying to stuff her full of ratpups since she laid her first clutch, but it doesn't seem to have done much for her, or not enough. What can I do to help her and, by proxy, any second clutches? I've heard about loading mice with calcium, but where can I get the calcium and syringes? Should I do it all year round?

 

[Jessica71]

Hi,

Wow, your snow has done brilliantly! I must say I'm no expert but it sounds as if she has used up a lot of resources in the last twelve months or so. How old is she? Is she in good condition? 27 eggs is fantastic, and she probably just didn't have enough nutrients for any more despite your best efforts. Plus the large number of eggs last year.

I think you can buy calcium supplements to dust her mice with - you're not supposed to do it every time you feed them, but perhaps doing it a few times would help her recover. I would consider perhaps giving her a year off next year, or just one clutch (unless she's one of those females who double clutches despite only mating once, in which case perhaps give her a year off). It takes a lot out of a corn to keep producing eggs - like a human who were to keep having babies every year or two, as women often did in the past. My anery produced 10 eggs in May and as it's her first clutch, I decided not to try for a double clutch.

Good luck anyway!

Jessica

 

[Joejr14]

I have a pretty amazing snow girl, who last year laid two clutches of 18 and then 14 eggs, this year she laid 27 eggs (24 of which were good and have all hatched out now), and I just got her 2nd clutch of 19 eggs... all of which I look bad. I put them in the incubator anyway, but they're very small and discolored and what not.

I think it may be a case of her body just not having enough resources to make good eggs. I've been trying to stuff her full of ratpups since she laid her first clutch, but it doesn't seem to have done much for her, or not enough. What can I do to help her and, by proxy, any second clutches? I've heard about loading mice with calcium, but where can I get the calcium and syringes? Should I do it all year round?

Are you purposely trying to double clutch her? If so, why? Most breeders do not want their females to double clutch if they can help it---but some always will. It's very taxing on the females and can create some problems.

You can dust the food with calcium, it's not going to hurt. There are a few big breeders that do that with every feeding. It certainly could only help between a first and second clutch.

If the female loses a lot of weight after her first clutch, you really shouldn't try for a second one. If she's just doing it naturally without being re-introudced that is one thing, but you don't want to push your female.

 

[Silvergrin]

She's a 2001 and she's actually in pretty great condition. I think she looks better than some of my girls who're still recovering from their first clutch. She eats *voraciously*, and only stops eating a week or two before she lays.

I'm not trying to double clutch her... last year I was moving and someone else was taking care of my snakes for the summer until I could drive up to get them, and I thought it would be ok to house her and the male and another female together to save on this person's space, as they seemed to get along fine. Well, she had another clutch (and she was the only one to do so) then. This year I tried separating them but she did it again... that's probably also why they're infertile, but can't they retain sperm?

She does still look pretty good. She's also the only one of my five females who does this :/ I might try giving her a break next year anyway... she certainly deserves one.

 

[Silvergrin]

Er, I should add that earlier I didn't actually know they could have double clutches, until she did it :/

 

[Joejr14]

Some females will just always double clutch, no matter what. They can and do retain sperm.

You can get powdered calcium and just dip the rat pups/mice bottoms in it before feeding. It won't hurt the snakes.

If your female is always going to double clutch, it might actually be beneficial to re-introduce her back to the male so the majority of her second clutch it fertile, and not slugs. Sure seems like a big waste of energy, body mass and effort to just lay 19 slugs.

 

[DavidM]

won't she lose more body weight, energy and effort growing fertile eggs than growing slugs? I reckon you have to balance the benefits of getting some more good eggs against the potential extra loss of condition in their mother.

Mine double clutched without being reintroduced - all slugs.

David

 

[Sasheena]

From what I understand the amount of energy the female puts into double clutching is approximately the same regardless of whether they are slugs or they are fertile. I do not know this for a scientific fact, but I believe it is true. If a snake is going to put X amount of energy into creating eggs, regardless of what you do, I would go ahead and put her with the male so at least the effort on her part isn't on wasted slugs but instead on viable offspring. Also, knowing that she is prone to this you might try to "beef her up" before breeding season even more than your average female.

I had two snakes double clutch last year. I reintroduced one of them, and did not re-introduce the other. The one that was reintroduced shows no sign of being gravid and it's too soon to tell on the other one.

 

[Silvergrin]

Joejr14 cool, I'll try dipping instead of injecting it into the mouse's body cavity or something, that sounds easier/less messy. This girl isn't usually picky so I don't think she'll mind.

I've been wondering whether making fertile eggs is much more taxing than making infertile ones, too. Mostly to know whether or not to put her with a male next year if she's going to lay anyway. Her first clutch last year had a few bad ones-- they were slightly off color and squishy, but they didn't have the large translucent patches/mottled white apperance these recent ones did, which is why I'm concerned about getting more resources in her. (this year had some eggs that didn't make it too, but I think it was a case of the embryo dying in the egg or something-- the eggs looked good until they rotted off halfway through the incubation)
Think it would be ok to feed her more frequently during the breeding season? I already feed her 3 mice once a week during the season... I don't want to "power feed" her, but maybe she needs it?

 

[Silvergrin]

And by "mice" I mean "a mix of weanling mice and ratpups and the ocassional extra quail chick". Any of these items particularly better for her than another?

 

[fyrefairy]

Gutloading Mice/Rats

You asked about loading your rats, which I find is less messy than dusting. (My girl likes to smear the powder around and roll in it...) I buy my food item the night before or that morning and don't feed it. About half an hour before I'm ready to feed, I sprinkle some calcium powder on lab blocks or whatever rodent feed I have handy, and then feed her the gut-loaded prey item. If she doesn't eat the item right away (within about ten minutes), I usually just feed it to my male and save his for next week (with rat pups). If it's a mouse, I hang onto it and feed it until next week, when I try again. I think she knows when I'm plotting against her. She only refuses some gutloaded items (powder on the whiskers, maybe?) and right before she lays. I've only been loading prey when I suspect she's gravid, and her second clutch (She's another one that double clutches regardless) looked great - no slugs, one egg was a little thin, 16 that were perfect.