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Temps on bottom & top of substrate

JTGoff69

New member
Since there are two camps on where to take temps on the warm side of the viv , let me ask this: The camp that says "on the bottom of the viv" should be 85-87. What if the snake never ventures there?? The top of the substrate under the hide may never get above 70-72 (my house). How does the snake get warm if they only hide there? Digest? Second camp.....take temps on top of the substrate under the hide. Without overhead heat lamps, temps are still 70-72 (my house) Why not use a uth with the thermostat set at 87 (fluctuations between 83-87) along with a 75w heat bulb overhead to warm the glass underneath the substrate to 83-86, and the substrate above to 80-85? Just a thought & the way I did things way back in the day.....
 
 
Sorry, uploading pictures is messing me up. The temp on top of the substrate under the hide is 75.4.
 
Since there are two camps on where to take temps on the warm side of the viv ........................ Just a thought & the way I did things way back in the day.....

I usually stay out of these threads but :face_palm_02: here's my thoughts based on experience from "way back in the day" up to now :) Now-a-days the consensus is to use a thermostat set at the glass temp to 87 +/-1 . Back in the day I can't even recall if we sold thermostats :shrugs:. I do remember when I went from hobbyist to retailer the learning curve I went through on proper heating of different species snakes. We made corrections by changing the thickness and/or kind of bedding when it came to UTH's. With heat lamps we changed the wattage and proximity.
I learned that ball pythons and red tail boas would get minor burns from heat sources where most colubrids would not. Corn snakes being smarter than the average snake when it came to unregulated UTH's never developed burns. It turned out that BP's and Boa's didn't have the genetic makeup to leave a hot spot when it became unsafe where the colubrids could sense when something was to hot and stay off it.
This subject has been hotly debated on here for along time. I believe 3 factors play a role on how we ended up where we are now . first being anthropomorphism. If it is to hot for me then it is to hot for the snake. I recall when a pet store opened up a couple of miles from mine. The proprietor was mainly a bird person and I was selling her my birds. She was selling snakes for another reptile guy and everytime I went in I noticed that she had either raised or removed the heat lamps. I would explain again the necessity of proper heating for snakes and her response every time was " It's to hot for me so it has to be to hot for them" :nope:
The second being the amount and length of experience of being a snake keeper. I kept Tex, my bull snake that lived into his early 20's, on a unregulated UTH for the 16+ years I had him with no issues. A couple of the most highly respected and experienced corn snake breeders recommend NOT to regulate UTH's. In fact I believe regulating it has caused numerous issues with first time corn snake owners with the number one issue being regurges from lack of enough heat.
The third is fact vs fiction. The saying of "if it's on the interweb then it has to be true" seems to have some weight behind it. If fiction is repeated enough then it becomes fact. I have spent hours fact checking UTH setups and what are the true temps in each location. Even tested the differences in using a probe thermometer vs a infrared gun to get the correct readings.
All that being said I've taken the position of if people want to regulate their UTH's for what is really their own peace of mind then go ahead BUT I still recommend keeping the thermostat probe inside the hot side hide. IMO that is where the temp matters the most. It seems over the last few years the cold side of a habitat has gone from room temp (68+/-) to keeping it at a steady 75 ?? I don't why that temp has creeped up over the years :shrugs:
I do prefer warmer temps for hatchlings than juveniles and adults on the cold side. I keep my newly hatched snakes at steady incubation temps until they are eating regularly. Definitely certain things influence my decision on temps.
The bottom line here is when it comes to getting the proper heat gradient then if you need to use a OTH then go ahead :eek:k_01:
 
I usually stay out of these threads but :face_palm_02: here's my thoughts based on experience from "way back in the day" up to now :) Now-a-days the consensus is to use a thermostat set at the glass temp to 87 +/-1 . Back in the day I can't even recall if we sold thermostats :shrugs:. I do remember when I went from hobbyist to retailer the learning curve I went through on proper heating of different species snakes. We made corrections by changing the thickness and/or kind of bedding when it came to UTH's. With heat lamps we changed the wattage and proximity.

I learned that ball pythons and red tail boas would get minor burns from heat sources where most colubrids would not. Corn snakes being smarter than the average snake when it came to unregulated UTH's never developed burns. It turned out that BP's and Boa's didn't have the genetic makeup to leave a hot spot when it became unsafe where the colubrids could sense when something was to hot and stay off it.

This subject has been hotly debated on here for along time. I believe 3 factors play a role on how we ended up where we are now . first being anthropomorphism. If it is to hot for me then it is to hot for the snake. I recall when a pet store opened up a couple of miles from mine. The proprietor was mainly a bird person and I was selling her my birds. She was selling snakes for another reptile guy and everytime I went in I noticed that she had either raised or removed the heat lamps. I would explain again the necessity of proper heating for snakes and her response every time was " It's to hot for me so it has to be to hot for them" :nope:

The second being the amount and length of experience of being a snake keeper. I kept Tex, my bull snake that lived into his early 20's, on a unregulated UTH for the 16+ years I had him with no issues. A couple of the most highly respected and experienced corn snake breeders recommend NOT to regulate UTH's. In fact I believe regulating it has caused numerous issues with first time corn snake owners with the number one issue being regurges from lack of enough heat.

The third is fact vs fiction. The saying of "if it's on the interweb then it has to be true" seems to have some weight behind it. If fiction is repeated enough then it becomes fact. I have spent hours fact checking UTH setups and what are the true temps in each location. Even tested the differences in using a probe thermometer vs a infrared gun to get the correct readings.

All that being said I've taken the position of if people want to regulate their UTH's for what is really their own peace of mind then go ahead BUT I still recommend keeping the thermostat probe inside the hot side hide. IMO that is where the temp matters the most. It seems over the last few years the cold side of a habitat has gone from room temp (68+/-) to keeping it at a steady 75 ?? I don't why that temp has creeped up over the years :shrugs:

I do prefer warmer temps for hatchlings than juveniles and adults on the cold side. I keep my newly hatched snakes at steady incubation temps until they are eating regularly. Definitely certain things influence my decision on temps.

The bottom line here is when it comes to getting the proper heat gradient then if you need to use a OTH then go ahead :eek:k_01:


I hadn't heard about the genetics difference between colubrids and Royals / Burms ?!?

I always presumed that it was simply the difference between slender snakes and the heavier bodied ones ..
 
Thanks, daddio, for your complete and thoughtful post.

My major concern is that the temps are not capable of burning the snake. To me the key is that the snake have multiple hides with multiple safe temps to choose from. This includes the substrate if the substrate can be burrowed into.
 
I hadn't heard about the genetics difference between colubrids and Royals / Burms ?!?

I always presumed that it was simply the difference between slender snakes and the heavier bodied ones ..

Instinct or innate behavior would be more accurate words than genetic makeup but I couldn't think of it at the time :face_palm_02::laugh:

It's from programming from generations of experiences. Don S in an Email had a great example of innate behavior in reptiles. I'll look for it :)
 
Thanks, daddio, for your complete and thoughtful post.

My major concern is that the temps are not capable of burning the snake. To me the key is that the snake have multiple hides with multiple safe temps to choose from. This includes the substrate if the substrate can be burrowed into.

Your welcome.

I agree! Whether you regulate or not doesn't negate the need to have a properly set up habitat ! :)
 
I only have a UTH. My corn snakes can and do burrow down to the glass when they want to.



If there's no regulator / stat then presumably the temps of the viv base are a constant temp and you let the snake decide how warm it wants to be by lying on the substrate or burrowing ??

What's the Viv base temp by the way ??




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
I need to clarify. I only have a UTH on a thermostat and not a CHE or other overhead heat source. I'm so sorry. I didn't realize how that read.

The hottest spot in my viv is 87 on the glass under the warm hide. So I prevent burns but still give a gradient where the snake can choose a heat from 72 to 87 in the summer and from 68 to 87 in the winter.

I use two thermometer probes and a temp gun to monitor temps.
 
I need to clarify. I only have a UTH on a thermostat and not a CHE or other overhead heat source. I'm so sorry. I didn't realize how that read.

The hottest spot in my viv is 87 on the glass under the warm hide. So I prevent burns but still give a gradient where the snake can choose a heat from 72 to 87 in the summer and from 68 to 87 in the winter.

I use two thermometer probes and a temp gun to monitor temps.



No worries ... I thought it looked odd when I read it :)

You're doing a great job :)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
No worries ... I thought it looked odd when I read it :)

You're doing a great job :)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Thanks. I just hate it when I'm so sloppy and unclear. It was great to be able to say what I really meant! :eek:k_01:
 
I just don't keep substrate in the hides. My snake always shoves it out and winds up on the glass anyway. She doesn't poop in there or anything, so there don't seem to be any downsides to this as far as I can tell. And this way the temperature I'm measuring is always correct.
 
Thanks for everyone's opinions! I am maintaining a temp gradient of 87 on top of the glass over the uth, 82 on top of the substrate on the warm side hide, & 72-73 on top of the substrate on the cool side hide. I also have a hide in the middle and plenty of foliage. I'm sure my snake will be able to find a comfy place any time. :)
 
Thanks for everyone's opinions! I am maintaining a temp gradient of 87 on top of the glass over the uth, 82 on top of the substrate on the warm side hide, & 72-73 on top of the substrate on the cool side hide. I also have a hide in the middle and plenty of foliage. I'm sure my snake will be able to find a comfy place any time. :)

Sounds ideal to me!
 
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