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Ultra Hypo vs Hypo A

mike17l

mike17l

Self-Admitted Duckoholic
Is there any way to tell the differance between an ultra hypo and a hypo A animal? There is a snake for sale on another site that is being sold as ultra het for caramel and hypo a. It came from caramel parents that are both double het for hypo and ultra (Grandparents were Amber X Ultramel). The second picture is of the actual snake for sale and the first is what the seller says the ultras look like as neonates. How can I be sure this guy is an Ultra?
 

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on my screen that looks more ultramel to me than ultra and the 1st ones look ultra to me, which i know you said.
i have an ultra that looks identical to that one
 
Ultramels tend to look somewhere in between amels and hypo As. Ultras... well... they look more like regular hypos. The only way to be 100% sure in identification of ultra/ultramel/hypoA is via breeding trials I'm afraid. One way to get a feel for it is whether or not the breeder knows what he's talking about.
(There HAVE been cases of 'pretty hypos' hatching out, people posting pics, and then newbies deciding that those snakes are ultra just because they're pretty.)

That having been said, I will be cautiously optimistic and say that the snake in the second photo looks like it could indeed be an ultramel, based on the eye color in the photo.

-Kat
 
mike17l said:
Is there any way to tell the differance between an ultra hypo and a hypo A animal? There is a snake for sale on another site that is being sold as ultra het for caramel and hypo a. It came from caramel parents that are both double het for hypo and ultra (Grandparents were Amber X Ultramel).
Click to expand...
I have seen a couple of Ultras and I do not believe that you can tell them from Hypos, without knowing the line the came from.

It this case, I believe there is some serious questions as to what the breeders of these snake are actually het for. The breeding of an Amber X Ultramel, would not produced Caramels in the first place, but the Ultramel may have been het for Caramel, which is probably very likely.

The problem with this type of breeding, is the offspring are not necessarily het for Ultra. They would be het for Ultra OR Amel. They would have a 50% chance of not being het for Ultra, but a 100% chance to be het for Hypo, so there are no guarantees in this case that any hypomelanistic Corns from this group are Ultras instead of Hypos. It is much more likely that they are Hypos.

I would love to see somebody take a clutch of Corns that are from parents that are het for Ultra and Hypo, and show us how to tell the difference between the Ultra, Hypo and Hypo Ultras that are possible to hatch out in these clutches. I do not think it is possible, and then throw in the poss het Ultra OR Amel reality above when you use an Ultramel to make the hets instead of an Ultra, and there is no way they could be 100% certain they were selling Ultras.
 
ecreipeoj said:
I would love to see somebody take a clutch of Corns that are from parents that are het for Ultra and Hypo, and show us how to tell the difference between the Ultra, Hypo and Hypo Ultras that are possible to hatch out in these clutches. I do not think it is possible, and then throw in the poss het Ultra OR Amel reality above when you use an Ultramel to make the hets instead of an Ultra, and there is no way they could be 100% certain they were selling Ultras.
Click to expand...
Ya, I agree with this. There may be slight differences in border thickness (hypo should reduce them, ultra should not reduce them) but there's also enough variation in many clutches (and differences between male/female) to obscure that, IMO.

(I might choose my own keepers based on those ideas, but I would not sell or buy them with labels based on that method of ID.)
 
I found the ad in question, and the wording sounds like Mike Shivers talking. I wonder if all of the breeders came from the Ultra line, and the old way of thinking about Ultras is being used to predict the results. Remember that Goldust use to be called “Ultra Ambers”, and did not have the hypo gene involved necessarily.
 
Here is the ad I responded to:
"Male Ultrahypo cb05, this is the same gene that produces ultramel but in the hypo line and het for amber. Feeding on frozen fuzzy mice, 24". $150.00 shipped to your door."



Here are the emails we have sent back and forth, starting with the very first one I sent him, inquiring about the snake.


ME
"I was wondering about this snake. I am interested in it. What can you tell me about the genetics of it? What where the parents? It seems odd that it is an Ultra and het for hypo A (not un possible, just odd). Who breed this guy? Just trying to figure this guy out. Any info on him would be appreceated. Thanks."


BREEDER
"The parents don't matter. They are a kind of neat carmel that were double
het. But, the grandparents were a ultramel crossed to an amber. This is my
own little creation because I have not seen anyone else advertise producing
them. I came up with them by trying to make the amber gene even more amber without making ghost like. So, that is the history. I have been selling them for about 3 years now and this is one I was keeping back, and just decided it was a male I did not need"

ME
"I would love this guy, but my question is, how do you know he is ultra and not hypo A? Ambers are by definition caramel and hypo A. I just want to be sure I am getting an Ultra and not a hypo. Know what I mean. You can call me at ***-***-**** if you would rather explain it over the phone, as I know it can be hard to explain over email."

BREEDER
"That is correct. Since the grandmother was amber being hypo carmel, then there is the hypo A gene there. But, there is also the Ultra gene from the grandfather being Ultramel. I will be out of town starting tomorrow for 4 days. Feel free to email me while I am gone. I will answer them when I get back."

ME
"I really want an Ultra and being het for amber would be awsome, but how do you know that it is an ultra het hypo and caramel, and not a hypo het caramel and ultra? Know what I mean? If this guy is ultra, I want him. I just want to make sure he is ultra hypo and not hypo A."

BREEDER
"Think of it this way. Out of a clutch of eggs numbering somewhere in the teens. I kept this animal back for myself to use as a future breeder. This is out of a collection of 350 adult animals. I don't need to sell him to you, I very easily can keep him and use him as a breeder next year. But, I have 2 - 2004 males that are ready to go right now. So, I don't need him. I am not trying to sell you a hatchling in some odd hatchling colors. It is a yearly that has developed color and pattern and you have seen the photos. So, other then the pedigree, I don't know what less to tell you."


Any thoughts?
 
I saw that ad too.

There was another ad that I responded to and with further probing discovered that they are not selling ultras, but ultramels. Evidently they didn't know how the ultra gene works.

What a surprise, right?

:rolleyes:
 
SevierSerpents said:
I saw that ad too.

There was another ad that I responded to and with further probing discovered that they are not selling ultras, but ultramels. Evidently they didn't know how the ultra gene works.

What a surprise, right?

:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
I agree.

He thinks if he breeds an Ultramel to something, that the offspring are het for Ultra, which is not correct. They are het for Ultra OR Amel. Since he has the same mentality of Shivers when it comes to genetics, most likely, he thinks an Ultramel phenotype is an Ultra and the Ultras and Hypos in the clutches he lumps together as Hypos, just like everybody else did in the beginning.

I think until some time goes by, for everybody to sort out the Ultra gene, the safest way to acquire the Ultra gene into your colony is by buying Ultramels. At least you know they are het for Ultra. You can breed two Ultramels together and most likely the hypomelanistic Corns in the clutch will be Ultras.

I would avoid Corns that are known to have the Hypo gene in the mix, if you really want to produce known Ultras down the road, but having the Hypo gene in the mix, may also create a phenotype that is desirable as well. What would a Hypo Ultra Caramel look like, compared to an Ultra Caramel, Goldust or Amber? It just depends on what your goals are.

Buying hets that are het for Amel OR Ultra is not a bad thing either, if you don't mind raising a few more females. You can breed then to Ultramels down the road, and see if they are het for Amel OR Ultra and in the process of the test, you will still produce Ultramels and Amels if they are het for Amel, and Ultras and Ultramels if they are het for Ultra.
 
"That is correct. Since the grandmother was amber being hypo carmel, then there is the hypo A gene there. But, there is also the Ultra gene from the grandfather being Ultramel.
Click to expand...

Erm... Considering all of the F1s would have been het ultra-or-amel, there is no guarantee that this F2 snake is even carrying the ultra gene, let alone is homozygous for it. It sounds like the breeder doesn't know how the gene really works.

I mean, if someone offered you a snake that looked like it could be either anery or charcoal, and told you that it had to be a charcoal because it's grandfather was HET charcoal (even though it's grandmother was a ghost), would you trust it being a charcoal?

Think of it this way. Out of a clutch of eggs numbering somewhere in the teens. I kept this animal back for myself to use as a future breeder.
Click to expand...

It also sounds like he's a little full of himself. ;)

-Kat
 
BREEDER said:
"Think of it this way. Out of a clutch of eggs numbering somewhere in the teens. I kept this animal back for myself to use as a future breeder. This is out of a collection of 350 adult animals. I don't need to sell him to you, I very easily can keep him and use him as a breeder next year. But, I have 2 - 2004 males that are ready to go right now. So, I don't need him."
Click to expand...
I don't either. :wavey: :sidestep:
 
If you insist on going further, I would inquire as to whether or not any of that snake's siblings are amelanistic.
 
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