• Hello!

    Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.

    Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....

    Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.

    Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.

What Morph Does this look like to you?

Thinks2Much

Thinks2Much

Animal Enthusiast
I bought a breeding pair of "creamsicles" last fall. The female is definitely a cream - we aren't here to talk about her. I was told the male was bred by Don Soderberg and he was/is 3-4 years old. Well, he doesn't look like a standard creamsicle to me. He looks like an orange candy cane, in my opinion. His background is almost totally white- no yellow on his neck, even. He could be a "Tangerine creamsicle" I guess, but Don doesn't have any on his website. So maybe he didn't come from Don after all. I am not complaining - he is a pretty boy. I am waiting for their first clutch during my possession to hatch, but I saw pictures from last year's from the previous owner and they looked like typical cream babies. Regardless I have to advertise them as creams because I am sure the mother has emoryi blood.

Anyway, what do you think he is? I just bought a candy cane adult female from Rich Z. and I am tempted to breed him to her next year and see what the result is. What would you do? Please share your thoughts. :)
 

Attachments

  • cream_m_full (2).JPG
    cream_m_full (2).JPG
    151.3 KB · Views: 253
If it was sold as a creamsicle then it most likely is a creamsicle. Orange Candy Canes are worth more than a creamsicle so I highly doubt that any one would sell one as a cream. There is the possibility that it is not the common emoryiXcorn cream but unless you have any actual proof that it did not come from an emoryiXcorn cream there is no way to know for sure.
 
I think he looks like some creamsicles I've seen. Can't see his head very well, but unless I'm hallucinating, I think I see emoryi influence. And for the record, Don sells things that aren't listed on his website. He doesn't list normal emoryis or normal Upper Keys, but that didn't stop me from buying them from him. ;) Are there any other reasons you doubt the info that's been given to you?
 
Roy Munson said:
I think he looks like some creamsicles I've seen. Can't see his head very well, but unless I'm hallucinating, I think I see emoryi influence. And for the record, Don sells things that aren't listed on his website. He doesn't list normal emoryis or normal Upper Keys, but that didn't stop me from buying them from him. ;) Are there any other reasons you doubt the info that's been given to you?
Click to expand...

Pretty much just his appearance... the guy I bought the pair from wasn't much into snakes - the female had been a neighbor's family pet for years that he assumed custody of when they didn't want her anymore. He only bred them the once last year and I think they were the only two he had, decided it wasn't his cup of tea, I guess.

It didn't matter much when this guy's mate was the only one I had of breeding age, but now that I have a few more, I am trying to decide what to do for next year and I don't want to make a mistake in breeding him to the candy cane - which is sounds like I might have, given the replies so far. :)

Here is a head shot, if that helps:
 

Attachments

  • cream_m_head.JPG
    cream_m_head.JPG
    153.6 KB · Views: 239
Thinks2Much said:
Pretty much just his appearance... I am trying to decide what to do for next year and I don't want to make a mistake in breeding him to the candy cane
Click to expand...
Just out of curiosity, why would you buy a breeding pair of Creamsicles and want to breed one of them to something else? Like I said, just curious :shrugs:
 
Thinks2Much said:
I don't want to make a mistake in breeding him to the candy cane - which is sounds like I might have, given the replies so far.
Click to expand...

Maybe I am reading this wrong but is sounds like you think it is a candycane now because of the replies you have gotten in this thread but no one in this thread has said that it is a candy cane.
 
It was my understanding that if you bred a creamsicle that was 50% emoryi and 50% amel corn to a 100% amel corn, the result must still be advertised as a creamsicle (babies would be 25% emoryi and 75% corn) and they would still look like a creamsicle mostly, maybe be a bit darker than a 50/50 cream. A candy cane is an amel corn. I bred them this year because they were all I had that were old enough and while I suspected he could be a candy cane, I didn't know for sure. Lots of people breed reverse okeetees to creamsicles to get reverse okeetee creamsicles. If no one tried new combinations, we would never see anything different. It isn't like I wanted to take two things totally unrelated and breed them. Amels are half of the makeup of a creamsicle to begin with.

But to clarify, that if the general consensus is that my male is a creamsicle, I will NOT breed him to the female candy cane. I wanted to see what you alll thought and as I said, good thing I asked. :)
 
Billybobob said:
Maybe I am reading this wrong but is sounds like you think it is a candycane now because of the replies you have gotten in this thread but no one in this thread has said that it is a candy cane.
Click to expand...

You read it wrong - the overwhelming vote has been creamsicle, so I am assuming you all know what you are talking about. :)
 
Nice head shot, but it's not conclusive. Since you can't know for sure, and we can't know for sure, I'd stick with calling him a creamsicle. If you breed him to a known creamsicle, the offspring will be creamsicles regardless of what he actually is. If you breed him to a candycane, you would be ethically obligated to explain to every buyer of the hatchlings that they could be creamsicle. It's a mess that I would personally avoid. :shrugs:
 
Creamsicles really vary a tremendous amount depending on the lines of amel corn that have been used in their development. Background color can range from almost white like this one, to very deep orange tones.

While orange candy canes are selectively bred corns that approximate the orange saddle color that was first developed in creamsicles - they still don't get the soft orange tones that this guy shows - and that I associate with creamsicle rather than orange candy cane. His saddle shape and reduced side pattern also suggest creamsicle.

It is simply possible that reverse okeetee, candy cane or miami corns were bred into the line at some point and he retains the wide white backgound. He is a lovely snake and your breeding options depend on what you want to focus on in a breeding program. If you are intereted in breeding creamsicles and want to perpetuate the 'candy cream' look - then using a candycane corn as a partner would be a great idea. Just make sure it is clear to people buying your stock that they are emoryi/corns not pure corns. There is a strong preference from many to keep creamsicles (all emoryi/corns) separate from 'pure' corns, so if you want to work with pure corns, you are best to find an appropriate mate for your candy cane corn.

best of luck with your program,


mary v.
 
On a side note, the first candy canes, crimsons, etc.. involved the emoryi blood in an effort to brighten up the ground color. It wasn't as much of an issue back then as it is now. As has been stated before, I'm sure a lot of our beloved "pure bred corns" have genetic ties to their western cousins. I personally could care less, and would have no qualms breeding a cream to a candy cane, but to be responsible, I would call them creamsicles, as not to upset the breeding plans of the prospective buyer. Just an opinion :wavey:
 
Thanks one and all for your thoughts. I will NOT breed this guy to the new candy cane. I have time before next year's breeding season. Lone adult males aren't too hard to come by. The one I just got is very red and I wouldn't want to breed her to an orange one and lose the deep red anyway. I will find her a nice red mate before next spring.
 
Thinks2Much said:
The female is definitely a cream - we aren't here to talk about her. I was told the male was bred by Don Soderberg and he was/is 3-4 years old. Well, he doesn't look like a standard creamsicle to me.
Click to expand...
1. How is the female definitely a cream, while the male's history is in question?

2. What does a 'standard' creamsicle look like?

3. If it was sold to you as a creamsicle, it's a creamsicle, regardless of what anyone 'thinks' it looks like.

D80
 
Drizzt80 said:
1. How is the female definitely a cream, while the male's history is in question?

2. What does a 'standard' creamsicle look like?

3. If it was sold to you as a creamsicle, it's a creamsicle, regardless of what anyone 'thinks' it looks like.

D80
Click to expand...

1. Because the person I bought the pair from didn't acquire them from the same place or at the same time, so they are not suspect to the same assumptions. She is obviously a creamsicle given her large size, her coloring, and her emoryi influenced appearance (eyes, head shape). Plus she is over 10 years old and people didn't play with morphs as much then as they do now, so just by statistics, she is unlikely to be anything fancy. The male, on the other hand, changed hands a number of times and the man who sold it to me didn't seem to know what he was doing.

2. Your "Standard" creamsicle has a yellowish background with pale orange saddles where the two colors are rather low contrast, at least the vast majority of the 50/50 ones that I have seen look that way. I have never seen a "pure" corn that could achieve that washed out pastel look to both saddle and background you get from a 50/50 cream. I have a picture of my female in the breeding area - you can see her there. She looks nothing like this guy. If creamsicles didn't have a look, why would they have the name they have?

3. Let's look at a similar situation. If someone who is obviously inexperienced in the trade sells you a brownish corn snake they bought from someone else multiple times removed and tells you it a normal, you're not going to wonder if it there isn't a chance that it is really a rootbeer? You're not going to wonder if some kind of "purple monkey dishwasher" mix up occurred in the descriptions being handed down along the way? It isn't like I bought him from some big name in the business that I would 100% trust. Do you read the B.O.I? Have you heard about the TSE debacle? Well, we bought some ball pythons supposedly het for some fancy morphs from TSE that turned out not to be het for anything, so no, I don't trust everyone implicitly. "If it was sold to me as a creamsicle, then it is a creamsicle." What if it was sold to me as a female? Does that make it a male even after it lays eggs? People make mistakes. I had my small doubts and I wondered what you all thought.

I understand that there are those who oppose hybrids and that they are considered lesser animals. If I had a snake that I thought might be het for something, but I wasn't sure, I would sell it at the lower value, the non-het, so as not to cheat the purchaser. I thought the same might have happened here. Sell as a creamsicle so as not to cheat the purchaser because his true nature was not known anymore. When in doubt, you should sell as the cheaper animal. But that doesn't remove the possibility of the animal actually being the higher valued option.

But as I have now stated three times, I trust you all and will consider him a creamsicle.
 
"Sell as a creamsicle so as not to cheat the purchaser because his true nature was not known anymore. When in doubt, you should sell as the cheaper animal. But that doesn't remove the possibility of the animal actually being the higher valued option."

Given the venom of the anti-hybrid faction, I don't see many people selling a cornsnake with unknown history as a cream. They would slap "cornsnake" on it and hope no one knows any better. I would bet good money that more creams are sold as pure corns for more money than the other way around.

While there is a standard that most creams are judged by (the description you gave pretty much sums it up), there are those that, like yours, look very different. Take mine (pictured below). I am guessing, based on head and pattern, that he is right close to 50/50. Yet to look at him, you would think candy cane. I may breed him to my Miami in a few years to help clean up the background colour. That's why I would breed yours to the candy cane and hope for reduced background colour. Breeding her to just any amel will probably not give you nice, clean candy canes (which is more about a white background than orange or red saddles).
 
Last edited:
Thank you, dionythicus, for the lovely picture of your creamsicle. It is good to see other creamsicles who look quite a bit like mine. :)
 
I really don't think you can say there is any standard look for any type of hybrid. The natural variation in normals of any type of snake is so great that the resulting hybrids from crossing to different types of snakes would vary greatly from one cross to another cross (using a different pair to make the hybrids).

Dose that make sense to every one or am I over generalizing. I have never tried to produce my own creams so I don't really know if any thing I have said has any real basis in truth.
 
Billybobob said:
I really don't think you can say there is any standard look for any type of hybrid. The natural variation in normals of any type of snake is so great that the resulting hybrids from crossing to different types of snakes would vary greatly from one cross to another cross (using a different pair to make the hybrids).

Dose that make sense to every one or am I over generalizing. I have never tried to produce my own creams so I don't really know if any thing I have said has any real basis in truth.
Click to expand...

"Standard" was probably the wrong word for me to use since there can't be a "Standard" as you would have for say, the AKC. It appears to me that when you cross a typical amel corn to a typical emoryi, the result is fairly consistent. Things get quite variable when you use selectively bred amels instead of typical looking amels. I just meant my female creamsicle looks average for a typical amel corn to emoryi corn cross. You will always have variations in anything involved in nature. I don't think the hybrid makes a difference - you always see variance even in morphs - there are so many different looks to anerys as well, for example - it just all depends how you want to define the criteria.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top