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So Rich, you say you have been releasing the snakes with kinks, are they genetic kinks or enviromental?? Do you know they are, or do you think they are?? You see you keep pointing out the lines "thought" and "think" in the papers but those lines are used when the evidence points to something but can not say 100% that is the answer. Because in science they don't like being wrong, strongly suggest is another one they use.


Chytrid-thought to be from imported frog from Africa
Herpes-on many tortises (we can see that one, no thinking involved)
IBD-wiping out collections

And there is the one I can't think of in corns that wipes out collections. Name that one and you have four major problems but that is just the surface. How many keepers get a sick snake and just freeze it after the vet can't figure it out or it dies before he can?

IBD affects boids, the big dollar group!! Yet we know next to nothing about it even though it has been known for over a decade. What we know of in diseases in herps is about nothing. We have no idea what they can have, carry or pass on. Now you are releasing the most domesticated herp out there?? Do you know for sure they do not have something that they are immune to but wild snakes are not?? Do you know it for sure?

As a animal owner, you have a responsibility to care for the animal for it's entire life. Letting it go because you don't have the time is not responsible nor is it legal. In Florida it is illegal to even remove a wild animal from a property and release it. Besides the law you are breaking you are braking your responsibility to the animal and the hobby. Yes it is your responsibility to euthinize that animal humanly if you can not care for it or re-home it. If it is kinked, that is your problem. If it is not feeding, that is your problem. Releasing the animal is just a way around dealing with your responsibility. So talk about how it is better for the animal all you want, it is in fact only better for you. Really glad you are getting out of animals.

Now be at least responsible enough to the hobby that paid your bills and take down this entire thread in which you give evidence to the people trying to end our hobby that even the big guys are releasing animals. It is illegal, look in your permit packet that you get each year that yor renew, the laws are written right there for you.

Jason
 
Here is another individuals opinion on the matter.

Jason


jgragg said:
Until a year and a half ago I worked for FWC. It is absolutely, incontrovertibly AGAINST STATE LAW in Florida and many other states (all I've looked at) to release wild animals back into the wild. This is whether they've been in captivity only a short period of time, or are captive born and bred.

There are a lot of good reasons for this. Nearly all of them are to protect the existing (wild) wildlife populations. Some of them are to protect agriculture, human welfare, and the like.

Those states that address "temporary captivity OK for release" (e.g., for photo posing) usually indicate how long the animal can be held then released.

There are certainly situations where captive propagation is a tool utilized to bolster or restore wild populations. It has been used in herps of various taxonomic groups (anurans, turtles, crocodilians, squamates, tuatara...). But it is absolutely best left to professionals to manage (even if they seek or accept assistance later from skilled, serious private herpetoculturalists). Healthy wild populations don't need bolstering, and unhealthy (or extirpated) ones got that way for a reason. Maybe (probably) that reason still exists and needs to be removed first...a non-trivial exercise.

I noted in an earlier post that state wildlife agency websites are, sadly, not the best when it comes to disseminating complete, accurate, up-to-date information. Since you asked about Florida, call Tallahassee and ask for Law Enforcement. They can tell you the statute, code, etc which you can then search online for verification. Ask for those details, as well as the identity of who you're speaking with.

Under our federalist constitutional system, those powers not reserved for the federal government (interstate commerce, military, international treaties, etc) are held by the states. This includes wildlife management, for the most part. (Exceptions include migratory species like waterfowl, federally-protected species like manatees, and pelagic species like tuna.) State governments hold wildlife in trust for the people, in perpetuity. When you break state (or federal) wildlife laws you're held to be violating the rights of the current and future owners of the resource. Basically it's stealing or vandalism. Buying a license and otherwise following the law ensures your continued access to the resource that is yours to share, but not yours to just take. Not following the law puts puts you at risk of enforcement action, and honest herpers will think you're a turd.

Don't release captive wildlife, alright? It's against the law, but more to the point, it causes problems. Just because you might not know what those problems are doesn't mean they don't exist. You may mean well but you won't be doing good. A captive animal is a captive until its death. Don't collect anything you don't intend to keep until it dies or you kill it.

I'm in conservation biology, not law enforcement, for what it's worth.

Cheers,
Jimi
 
So Rich, you say you have been releasing the snakes with kinks, are they genetic kinks or enviromental?? Do you know they are, or do you think they are?? You see you keep pointing out the lines "thought" and "think" in the papers but those lines are used when the evidence points to something but can not say 100% that is the answer. Because in science they don't like being wrong, strongly suggest is another one they use.


Chytrid-thought to be from imported frog from Africa
Herpes-on many tortises (we can see that one, no thinking involved)
IBD-wiping out collections

And there is the one I can't think of in corns that wipes out collections. Name that one and you have four major problems but that is just the surface. How many keepers get a sick snake and just freeze it after the vet can't figure it out or it dies before he can?

IBD affects boids, the big dollar group!! Yet we know next to nothing about it even though it has been known for over a decade. What we know of in diseases in herps is about nothing. We have no idea what they can have, carry or pass on. Now you are releasing the most domesticated herp out there?? Do you know for sure they do not have something that they are immune to but wild snakes are not?? Do you know it for sure?

As a animal owner, you have a responsibility to care for the animal for it's entire life. Letting it go because you don't have the time is not responsible nor is it legal. In Florida it is illegal to even remove a wild animal from a property and release it. Besides the law you are breaking you are braking your responsibility to the animal and the hobby. Yes it is your responsibility to euthinize that animal humanly if you can not care for it or re-home it. If it is kinked, that is your problem. If it is not feeding, that is your problem. Releasing the animal is just a way around dealing with your responsibility. So talk about how it is better for the animal all you want, it is in fact only better for you. Really glad you are getting out of animals.

Now be at least responsible enough to the hobby that paid your bills and take down this entire thread in which you give evidence to the people trying to end our hobby that even the big guys are releasing animals. It is illegal, look in your permit packet that you get each year that yor renew, the laws are written right there for you.

Jason

Again, what makes YOUR opinion have greater weight then my own?

As for releases in Florida being illegal, read my previous post where it states plainly that releasing animals is an option presented to the officers when they find infractions by permit holders....

I looked through the statutes for the policy on releases, and this is what I found.
379.305 Rules and regulations; penalties.--

(1) The Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission may prescribe such other rules and regulations as it may deem necessary to prevent the escape of venomous reptiles or reptiles of concern, either in connection of construction of such cages or otherwise to carry out the intent of ss. 379.372-379.374.

(2) A person who knowingly releases a nonnative venomous reptile or reptile of concern to the wild or who through gross negligence allows a nonnative venomous reptile or reptile of concern to escape commits a Level Three violation, punishable as provided in s. 379.4015.

History.--s. 6, ch. 28263, 1953; s. 172, ch. 99-245; s. 6, ch. 2007-239; s. 108, ch. 2008-247.

Note.--Former s. 372.92.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes..._Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0379/Sec305.HTM
 
I have a question and maybe it doesn't apply or maybe it is dumb(if that is the case I understand if it is ignored). But I have been reading this thread trying to learn about this issue so I want to ask.

Anyways how is it different to release a native animal into its native habitat, versus planting a native plant in its native habitat? I only wonder because plants can carry plant diseases/parasites, and farm grown plants can have their genes manipulated through selective planting/pollinating, etc. I mean once a plant is put into the environment the potential exists for it to spread on its genes or diseases as well. So if it is not ok to release a native captive animal into its native environment, then why would it be ok to plant a native plant into its native environment? I just wonder because if the point is that even species native to the area can cause unintended consequences, then why are we all planting trees on arbor day, and why do so many people plant even non native plants in front of their house all without anyone ever complaining? I fully admit that theory behind plant introductions may not be relevant when discussing animals but in my mind it is the same (if you have info saying it isn't then please I will be happy to read it). It just makes me wonder why one is not ok, while the other is commonly practiced by most people with a yard even with non native plants.
 
So Rich, you say you have been releasing the snakes with kinks, are they genetic kinks or enviromental?? Do you know they are, or do you think they are?? You see you keep pointing out the lines "thought" and "think" in the papers but those lines are used when the evidence points to something but can not say 100% that is the answer. Because in science they don't like being wrong, strongly suggest is another one they use.

I don't know about the kinks, but I suspect most of them are developmental. Lavenders do tend to have more kinks then other lines, so there could be a genetic predisposition towards kinking. But it most cases, it is minor enough that it doesn't seem to affect the survivability of the animal at all. A "kink" can be nothing more then a small dip in the spine, which often isn't even noticeable without close scrutiny.

Ah, but science is wrong quite often, which is why they are better off using those words. It is generally the people who claim that the opposing party is reckless and irresponsible, inferring that only THEY are not reckless and only THEY are responsible, that I pretty much dismiss their claims as being more emotionally based rather than factually based.

Chytrid-thought to be from imported frog from Africa
Herpes-on many tortises (we can see that one, no thinking involved)
IBD-wiping out collections

And you have proof of such ailments affecting populations of corn snakes that are in the wild?

And there is the one I can't think of in corns that wipes out collections. Name that one and you have four major problems but that is just the surface. How many keepers get a sick snake and just freeze it after the vet can't figure it out or it dies before he can?

You are probably thinking of cryptosporidium. Yes, this can be a serious issue with colubrids. I once heard from a vetinarian I used to work with that he diagnosed several large (at the time) breeders' collections as being heavily infected with crypto. He was pretty discouraged to see them at the next shows selling off most of their collection to the public. Of course he couldn't mention any names, but it was at that time that I decided to CLOSE my own collection to any incoming animals. As for those other breeders, yes, I'm sure they did the responsible thing (to them), now didn't they?

IBD affects boids, the big dollar group!! Yet we know next to nothing about it even though it has been known for over a decade. What we know of in diseases in herps is about nothing. We have no idea what they can have, carry or pass on. Now you are releasing the most domesticated herp out there?? Do you know for sure they do not have something that they are immune to but wild snakes are not?? Do you know it for sure?

No, I'm not positive, but the simple fact that my collection has been closed to new additions for years now, and they are still living and thriving is pretty strong evidence that none of the possible deadly pathogens you speak of are in my collection. The chances of my collection having a deadly pathogen that they ALL would have suddenly developed an immunity to is pretty remote, don't you think? Or do you know a lot more about pathogens, genetically developed immunity, and the etiology of illnesses within corn snakes then I do?

The only ailments I can think of that might have been in my collection would be intenstinal parasites. That is because my mouse colony is not hermetically sealed, and insects from outside had free access to the inside of the mouse building. Which, of course, would lead to the likelihood of parasites coming from the WILD getting into the mice, and therefore passed onto my CAPTIVE snakes. I believe those snakes being released out into the wild aren't really contributing anything foreign, since such pathogens would have originated from the wild anyway. But realistically, anyone who feeds LIVE mice to their snakes are pretty much guaranteed to have some sort of parasites transmitted. Comes with the turf.

As a animal owner, you have a responsibility to care for the animal for it's entire life. Letting it go because you don't have the time is not responsible nor is it legal. In Florida it is illegal to even remove a wild animal from a property and release it. Besides the law you are breaking you are braking your responsibility to the animal and the hobby. Yes it is your responsibility to euthinize that animal humanly if you can not care for it or re-home it. If it is kinked, that is your problem. If it is not feeding, that is your problem. Releasing the animal is just a way around dealing with your responsibility. So talk about how it is better for the animal all you want, it is in fact only better for you. Really glad you are getting out of animals.

Says who? Who gave you the authority to tell me what I can do with my financial resources? Who gave you the authority to tell me what I can or cannot do with my personal possessions? No, if an animal is kinked or wishing to feed on something other then what I can offer it, it is IT'S problem. And one it may be able to deal with better on the outside where it has a chance, rather then in my freezer, where it has NO chance at all. Those situations are not contagious by any flight of imagination of someone else, so why KILL the animal because of them?

As for those Florida laws you are quoting, can you give me some solid references? All I see is hand waving..

And as for my responsibility to the animals, again, who made you the animal disposition sheriff? So killing an animal is better for IT then releasing it? I guess it's a good thing for you that your parents didn't think the same thing about you when it came time for them to release YOU into the world....

Actually, I'm pretty glad to be getting out of animals as well. Thanks for your well wishes.... I'm sure I will miss the pettiness I see in some people, though :rolleyes: ....

Now be at least responsible enough to the hobby that paid your bills and take down this entire thread in which you give evidence to the people trying to end our hobby that even the big guys are releasing animals. It is illegal, look in your permit packet that you get each year that yor renew, the laws are written right there for you.

Jason

Take down this thread? Why, pray tell? I think this is excellent evidence that your side of the argument doesn't have a firm footing in any facts or logic at all. Basically your side is based merely on smoke and mirror emotional hand waving based on some nebulous unspecified fears. I believe the real issue is about the genetics of mutations being released into the wild, yet the claims of pathogens is just a shield of convenience to mask the real intent and focus of your fears.

No, normally it is the LOSING side of an argument that wants the evidence of their febrile claims expunged. I'm comfortable and confident enough with my own statements to not be afraid of having them remain here for public scrutiny.

And no, as best I have been able to determine from scrutiny of the Florida Statutes, which are the LAWS in Florida, it is not illegal to release native species that have been in captivity. Matter of fact, releasing captive animals is plainly an option open to enforcing officers enforcing such laws, and quite obviously, being offered that option pretty much spells out their perception of any nebulous dangers that some fringe elements may have fears about.
 
"Actually, I'm wondering if you have clicked on your own link yourself. When I do, i just get a brief abstract and short quote of the intro with this notice"

This is true. I have an account so it just opens up for me, call it a momentary lapse but I forgot that most people don't have access to JSTOR without paying for it. My apologies to you and to the other person who I asked if they had read the link. The abstract is not enough to go on and it is conjectural in that it only states conclusions, so I can understand your point of view and criticisms now in light of this.

"Crotalus, I really think you need to brush up on those definitions of conjecture and speculation. I believe that the words "thought", "appears" and "implications" used in that abstract and title could very well be included in those definitions. They don't really bring any hint of solid "smoking gun" sorts of evidence to my mind...."

I can assure you that my understanding of these definitions is accurate and that, assuming you are an honest guy, we would find each other in agreement if you had access to the full report including the supporting evidence. Without access to the article, you are justified in your criticism.

"BTW, that article was written in 1993. You mean to tell me that in the 16 years since it was written, no gains have been made in replacing that word "IMPLICATIONS" with the word "PROOF"?"

Once again this wouldn't be as much of an issue if you could read the paper.

I'm a fair guy so I admit that you're valid in your criticism of the incomplete-ness of the paper because all you can see is the abstract, but even with this being the case, I believe that when presented with a potential risk, the onus is on YOU to defend and justify your behaviors. The results from the study are right on and in accordance with the evidence, but whether you take my word for it or not, a good case for a high risk has been established yet you are consciously choosing to deny the obvious. Given my presentation of the abstract from the tortoise study (which in itself the abstract wouldn't be enough as you've stated) in combination with the NSW legal ruling and Jason Hood's quotation of a "credible" source, the evidence is there and it is obvious to those who place a higher value on the animals than their own agenda. Not to mention the reason involved in the anecdotal claim that you are potentially jeopardizing wildlife; all of this adds up in my mind to the observation that Rich Z behaves irresponsibly even in the face of obvious counter evidence. Nothing personal here Rich, just an observation of something personal...
 
BTW- I too think that this thread ought to remain in the public eye. This is for the exact same reason that Rich said but in opposite terms- this thread must stay public so that those who view the thread can observe that herpers do not breathe the same breathe nor do we all agree on which ethical behavior is most reasonable.

I agree with Rich that the claims on my side of this argument are nebulous, vague and motivated by fear. This isn't what motivates a good argument, but it's exactly what motivates ALL ethical theory and principle. This is a matter of ethics, not a matter of logic. Ethics are not always logical- for instance the ethical claim that one ought not to steal is illogical if in fact stealing would benefit someone. The point is that this is a matter of ethics and all ethical matters are nebulous in nature.

Let this thread remain in the public eye for all to see that herpers are generally good people who do not always agree on everything but who have good intentions in mind. I'm not sure if this sentiment is represented by Rich's side of the argument (I'm inclined to say it isn't) but it certainly is represented by mine, which places a higher emphasis on the well being of the animals that I love over my own personal agenda or ease.
 
"And no, as best I have been able to determine from scrutiny of the Florida Statutes, which are the LAWS in Florida, it is not illegal to release native species that have been in captivity. Matter of fact, releasing captive animals is plainly an option open to enforcing officers enforcing such laws, and quite obviously, being offered that option pretty much spells out their perception of any nebulous dangers that some fringe elements may have fears about."

In the interest of fairness, I too have been unable to find actual legal statutes that express the illegality of this behavior. If it's really that hard to find then maybe the claim that Florida has made it illegal is false. That being said, a national government agency (NSW) has FEDERALLY banned this activity and that's credible enough in and of itself for me.
 
"And no, as best I have been able to determine from scrutiny of the Florida Statutes, which are the LAWS in Florida, it is not illegal to release native species that have been in captivity. Matter of fact, releasing captive animals is plainly an option open to enforcing officers enforcing such laws, and quite obviously, being offered that option pretty much spells out their perception of any nebulous dangers that some fringe elements may have fears about."

In the interest of fairness, I too have been unable to find actual legal statutes that express the illegality of this behavior. If it's really that hard to find then maybe the claim that Florida has made it illegal is false. That being said, a national government agency (NSW) has FEDERALLY banned this activity and that's credible enough in and of itself for me.

Sorry, but the federal government does not have jurisdiction in any activity that does not involve interstate commerce.
 
Actually, I'm wondering if you have clicked on your own link yourself. When I do, i just get a brief abstract and short quote of the intro with this notice:


The ONLY statement made on that page about this issue is this:


Heck, the very title of that article begins with the word "IMPLICATIONS".

Crotalus, I really think you need to brush up on those definitions of conjecture and speculation. I believe that the words "thought", "appears" and "implications" used in that abstract and title could very well be included in those definitions. They don't really bring any hint of solid "smoking gun" sorts of evidence to my mind....

BTW, that article was written in 1993. You mean to tell me that in the 16 years since it was written, no gains have been made in replacing that word "IMPLICATIONS" with the word "PROOF"?

Okay, then what about the federal ban on murder? This isn't about semantics, you must have understood my point and then focused on semantics to dodge them. We're also talking about Australia here, not the U.S.A.
 
"Actually, I'm wondering if you have clicked on your own link yourself. When I do, i just get a brief abstract and short quote of the intro with this notice"

This is true. I have an account so it just opens up for me, call it a momentary lapse but I forgot that most people don't have access to JSTOR without paying for it. My apologies to you and to the other person who I asked if they had read the link. The abstract is not enough to go on and it is conjectural in that it only states conclusions, so I can understand your point of view and criticisms now in light of this.

"Crotalus, I really think you need to brush up on those definitions of conjecture and speculation. I believe that the words "thought", "appears" and "implications" used in that abstract and title could very well be included in those definitions. They don't really bring any hint of solid "smoking gun" sorts of evidence to my mind...."

I can assure you that my understanding of these definitions is accurate and that, assuming you are an honest guy, we would find each other in agreement if you had access to the full report including the supporting evidence. Without access to the article, you are justified in your criticism.

"BTW, that article was written in 1993. You mean to tell me that in the 16 years since it was written, no gains have been made in replacing that word "IMPLICATIONS" with the word "PROOF"?"

Once again this wouldn't be as much of an issue if you could read the paper.

I'm a fair guy so I admit that you're valid in your criticism of the incomplete-ness of the paper because all you can see is the abstract, but even with this being the case, I believe that when presented with a potential risk, the onus is on YOU to defend and justify your behaviors. The results from the study are right on and in accordance with the evidence, but whether you take my word for it or not, a good case for a high risk has been established yet you are consciously choosing to deny the obvious. Given my presentation of the abstract from the tortoise study (which in itself the abstract wouldn't be enough as you've stated) in combination with the NSW legal ruling and Jason Hood's quotation of a "credible" source, the evidence is there and it is obvious to those who place a higher value on the animals than their own agenda. Not to mention the reason involved in the anecdotal claim that you are potentially jeopardizing wildlife; all of this adds up in my mind to the observation that Rich Z behaves irresponsibly even in the face of obvious counter evidence. Nothing personal here Rich, just an observation of something personal...

You are missing the point. I do not believe there is any risk involved. The snakes were not being released because I believed they are "unhealthy" in the sense of suffering from transmissible pathogens. The evidence you claim that is "obvious" really is not, and your claims to the contrary are obviously irresponsible in a discussion where facts are needed. You are claiming that your OPINIONS are facts. You are claiming that speculation and conjecture, just because it is print, are facts. You are claiming that anyone not agreeing with you concerning your personal conclusions derived from your opinions based on conjecture and speculation is being irresponsible.

Nothing personal, it's just that I don't agree with your opinions. Your repeating the same thing over and over again doesn't make them any closer to being facts, I'm afraid.
 
Okay, then what about the federal ban on murder? This isn't about semantics, you must have understood my point and then focused on semantics to dodge them. We're also talking about Australia here, not the U.S.A.

Wow, talk about dodges... Where is murder prosecuted? Unless it involves a federal employee, of course....

And what does what Australia does have to do with what happens in Florida? Hell, Australia has pretty much banned firearms from private ownership. That's pretty much proof to me that their government is disinterested in what their subjects may think of their freedom.
 
Let this thread remain in the public eye for all to see that herpers are generally good people who do not always agree on everything but who have good intentions in mind. I'm not sure if this sentiment is represented by Rich's side of the argument (I'm inclined to say it isn't) but it certainly is represented by mine, which places a higher emphasis on the well being of the animals that I love over my own personal agenda or ease.

Are we talking about the same animals that you would prefer to have KILLED rather than give them a chance at survival by releasing them?

And while we are talking about ethics here, do you currently have rattlesnakes in your possession? Do you breed them?
 
So Rich unless I can give you a study on corn snakes that shows wild corns were adversly affected by someone releasing them then you are not going to back down?? Really??

First show me a study on wild corn snakes and their pathogens in the first place?

Second you are asking me to prove something that can not be proven. You are asking that I find an example of a pathogen that is only in captive collections killing wild corns to be exact. You can find this because no one has done the study.

What strikes me as the most amazing is that you state that the disease vector is a front to cover the genetic side of things... NO IT ISN'T

I just didn't get into the gentics side of things because it is a whole other issue. So yes releasing genetic material from all over the range of a species into a single area is just plain stupid. The corns native to your area are the result of evolution, what right do you have to drop your poluted genes into the pool?? Yes that is an issue, and yes they are polluted. How sure are you that you do not have yellow rat genes in your collection?? Great Plains Rats?? Black Rats?? You don't have any clue because people have been breeding corns to everything, shoot you might have cal king genes in there. If you want that crap, and yes I think crossing subs like that is crap no hiding that, that is fine to have but to then go and release it into the area on purpose is selfish and ignorant.

Just like most people in West Palm Beach grow up not even knowing that brown anoles are not native, your area can have snakes that are nothing like what the natives should look like and in a couple generations the locals will have no idea. This kind of selfish behavior is why I am against hybrids and crosses, case in point.

Yes I am emotional because I believe in standing up for what is right and you being selfish and self centered as well as close minded is infuriating to say the least. There is able evidence to point to your activity bringing harm to the local enviroment around you but you are asking for someone to come study it and show you what is wrong before you will admit it. What is petty is your attitude Rich. I have to go back to work but I will dig up some papers for you if you want.

But in closing, for something for you to think about, what has caused the massive decline in Florida King Snake populations across their former range besides the massive altered cane fields?? Fire ants is one theory. What else?? Do they have a pathogen wiping out their populations?? Is it from eating released corns at your house (probably not but can you prove the negative like you are asking us to do??)

Jason
 
The other day, Connie and I walked down the road through the middle of our property, and on the way back from the stream I spotted this little critter resting peacefully alongside the road near one of the concrete culverts that the smaller stream branch runs through.

How would you like to spot something like THIS in your snake hunting travels?


It would make me happy.

But I didn't just join to say that!!
 
So Rich unless I can give you a study on corn snakes that shows wild corns were adversly affected by someone releasing them then you are not going to back down?? Really??

First show me a study on wild corn snakes and their pathogens in the first place?

Second you are asking me to prove something that can not be proven. You are asking that I find an example of a pathogen that is only in captive collections killing wild corns to be exact. You can find this because no one has done the study.

What strikes me as the most amazing is that you state that the disease vector is a front to cover the genetic side of things... NO IT ISN'T

I just didn't get into the gentics side of things because it is a whole other issue. So yes releasing genetic material from all over the range of a species into a single area is just plain stupid. The corns native to your area are the result of evolution, what right do you have to drop your poluted genes into the pool?? Yes that is an issue, and yes they are polluted. How sure are you that you do not have yellow rat genes in your collection?? Great Plains Rats?? Black Rats?? You don't have any clue because people have been breeding corns to everything, shoot you might have cal king genes in there. If you want that crap, and yes I think crossing subs like that is crap no hiding that, that is fine to have but to then go and release it into the area on purpose is selfish and ignorant.

Just like most people in West Palm Beach grow up not even knowing that brown anoles are not native, your area can have snakes that are nothing like what the natives should look like and in a couple generations the locals will have no idea. This kind of selfish behavior is why I am against hybrids and crosses, case in point.

Yes I am emotional because I believe in standing up for what is right and you being selfish and self centered as well as close minded is infuriating to say the least. There is able evidence to point to your activity bringing harm to the local enviroment around you but you are asking for someone to come study it and show you what is wrong before you will admit it. What is petty is your attitude Rich. I have to go back to work but I will dig up some papers for you if you want.

But in closing, for something for you to think about, what has caused the massive decline in Florida King Snake populations across their former range besides the massive altered cane fields?? Fire ants is one theory. What else?? Do they have a pathogen wiping out their populations?? Is it from eating released corns at your house (probably not but can you prove the negative like you are asking us to do??)

Jason

:rolleyes: The defense rests......
 
Rest on what? That there has not been a study in cornsnakes?? No comment on the king snakes? I guess all the other pathogens that are causing problems don't matter then. Are there no vets on this forum??

I called and spoke to 2 vets today and the quick version is "what we know about reptile disease is like taking a cup of water from Lake Okeechobee and saying you know all that is in the lake from that cup". So you are going to rest on ignorance and pride?? Doesn't get better than that.

I am really amazed that no other people on this board have stepped up, do all of you really care so little for what happens to the enviroment? Rich great plains rats are not native to Florida so releasing them in some form of cross is releasing an exotic.

I too have looked at Florida's web site and it is terrible but that doesn;t mean your actions are not illegal. I did snake rescue calls for about 5 years when I lived there and in the laws governing them it stated that you can not release an animal off the property that it was captured on. I found this to be such a stupid law because (and I did talk to FWC officers about this) I could, by the letter of the law, move an animal from one corner of a property to the other and usher it off the property but I could not release it off a property and it did not matter the size of a property. I could legally take a call for a rattlesnake in a barn on a 500 acre farm and I could move that snake from one end of the property to the other but I could not move a snake captured in a development on a 1/4 acre lot across the street 200 feet from the property it was captured at. Like I said earlier, look at your permit to sell reptiles, in the packet that came with it there used to be a short list of laws pertaining to reptiles and amphibians. There has got to be someone on this forum that has it, step up and post it.

Jason
 
Here are some things sent to me by my vet on this matter. Be careful if you read this you might just learn something, best to just skim it for words like may, might, probably, could, and should. This is however a professionals writings on releases anywhere in the world based on the KNOWN pathogens which are listed per animal type and region. Sorry no corns listed so keep on resting on the fact that no one is studing a non endangered animal for pathogens to watch out for prior to release...:headbang:



REPTILIA 3, 7, 12, 13
64
It has been stated that most translocation projects involving amphibians and reptiles have
not been successful and that they should not be advocated as conservation techniques.
Consequently, if and when it is decided to release confiscated or unwanted pet reptiles into
the wild, it is particularly important to screen them carefully, so as to minimise the risk of
introducing a dangerous infection into the wild population.1
Health screening while in quarantine
Quarantine for reptiles should last for 90 days. Quarantine facilities should be adequate for
the thermal requirements of the species under quarantine and allow for thermo-regulatory
behaviour.
1. Faecal examination, direct and flotation, for protozoan 6 (especially Cryptosporidia sp.
4 and Amoeba sp.) and metazoan parasites. Three or more consecutive tests should
be negative.
2. Culture faeces for Salmonella sp.
Note: Since > 80% of reptiles can test positive for Salmonella sp. evidence of infection may
not preclude release.
3. Carry out complete Blood Count and PCV.
4. Examine blood smears for haemoparasites.
5. Swab/nasal wash and examination for Mycoplasma sp. and Mycobacteria.sp.
Note: Check the wild, recipient chelonian population for enzootic mycoplasmal infection,
too. If the wild population is already infected, it may be unnecessary to disallow the
release of infected chelonians.
6. Serology for antibodies of Mycoplasma sp.and herpes virus for chelonians (especially
Testudo hermanni and T. graeca) and orphidian paramyxovirus for reptiles 2, 5.
7. Check for tick infestation, especially Amblyomma sp. that can be vectors of
cowdriosis-heartwater. If present, treat with an acaricide.
Note: Green sea turtles (Chelonia mydas) which have been treated surgically for fibropapillomatosis
should be released only in the area in which they were found, since
this condition seems to occur in certain defined geographic areas.
Crocodylia
(Compiled by F. Huchzermeyer,3 IUCN/SSC Crocodile Specialist Group).
3 F. Huchzemeyer, Onderstepoort Veterinary Institute, P.O. Box 12499, Onderstepoort 0110, Republic of South Africa.
E-mail: [email protected].
65
Pre-release quarantine for farm–bred crocodylia, beyond the time required to carry out a
clinical examination, apply specific serological tests and where appropriate, pre-release
treatment for parasitic worms, is considered to be stressful and unnecessary.
Wild populations are often reservoirs of the known crocodile-specific diseases: caiman
pox, crocodile pox, adenoviral hepatitis, chlamydiosis, mycoplasmosis (arthritis) and
coccidiosis.
Most of the specific diseases of crocodylia listed above are enzootic in wild populations
and wild crocodiles thus present a greater danger to captive (farmed) crocodiles than the
reverse.
Unfortunately, except for chlamydiosis, there are no serological tests for the above
diseases. Tests for mycoplasmosis might be possible if the relevant test antigens could be
prepared. Pre-release testing for chlamydiosis in Nile crocodiles and clinical examination
for mycoplasmosis in Nile crocodiles and American alligators should be carried out as a
routine.
Crocodile coccidial oocysts are extremely fragile and are rarely detected in faecal
flotations or direct smears. However, coccidiosis is considered to be a major disease of
farmed crocodiles in Zimbabwe.8
The examination of blood smears from crocodiles serves little purpose since the known
blood parasites of crocodiles appear to be harmless.
Gastrointestinal nematode infections are usually asymptomatic in crocodiles but may
occasionally be associated with disease. Infection with Dujardinascaris sp. may cause
disease and can be associated with gastric ulceration and runting in hatchlings.8, 11
Nematode larvae in the muscles of slaughtered Nile crocodiles from farms in Zimbabwe
have been tentatively identified as Trichinella spiralis nelsoni but this identification has
since been questioned and it has been suggested that they may represent a new taxon of
Trichinella. The distribution of T.spiralis is cosmopolitan and it can transmit to domestic
livestock and humans.9
Pentastomes often occur in crocodilians in great numbers, both as adults and also as
larvae and nymphs. Pentastomiasis is regarded as a major disease on crocodile farms in
Australia.10
Pre-release clinical examination of crocodiles should exclude cases of dermatitis.
If farmed crocodilians are to be released into the wild, a health certificate covering the
farm of origin and a clinical examination of the animals to be released should be obtained.
No runts, animals in poor condition or with visible abnormalities should be released.
Crocodiles from farms with a recent history of disease and mortality should not release
animals into the wild and juvenile crocodiles which have been fed on river fish should be
treated with an anthelmintic before release.
66
When possible, release should not take place in winter or during the cold months of the
year.
The release area should be ecologically correct for the age group to be released and the
behaviour and movement patterns of the species concerned should be considered.
References
1. Dodd, C.K. and R.A. Seigel (1991). Relocation, repatriation and
translocation of amphibians and reptiles: Are they conservation strategies
that work? Herpetologica, 47 (3), pp. 336-350.
2. Jacobson, E.R., J.L. Behrer and J.L. Jarchow. (1999). Health Assessment of
Chelonians and Release into the wild. In: Fowler, M.E. and E.R. Miller (eds.),
Zoo and Wild Animal Medicine: Current Therapy, 4, chapter 30, pp. 232-241.
W.B. Saunders & Co., Philadelphia.
3. Merck Veterinary Manual, 8th Edition, 1998. Reptiles, pp.1402-1419.
4. Agnew, D.W., (1992). Cryptosporidiosis in Reptiles. In: AAZV Infectious
Diseases Notebook.
5. Flannagan, J., (1992). Paramyxovirus Infection of Snakes. In: AAZV
Infectious Diseases Notebook.
6. Willette-Frahm, M., K.M.Wright, and B.C.Thode. (1994). Select Protozoal
Diseases in Amphibians and Reptiles. In: AAZV Infectious Diseases
Notebook.
7. Cooper, J.E. and Jackson, O.F. (1981). Diseases of the Reptilia. Academic
Press, London and New York.
8. Foggin, C.M. (1992). Diseases of farmed crocodiles, In: Conservation and
Utilisation of the Nile crocodile in Southern Africa: Handbook on crocodile
farming, Ed: G.A.Smith and J.Marais pp.107-140.
9. Foggin, C.M. and Widdowson, M.A., (1996). A Trichinella-like parasite in
farmed crocodiles in Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe Veterinary Journal, 27: 86.
10. Buenaviage, G.N., Ladds, P.W., Melville, L. and Manolis S.C. (1994).
Disease husbandry associations in farmed crocodiles in Queensland and the
Northern Territory. Australian Veterinary Journal, 71: 165-73.
11. Ladds, P.W. and Sims, L. (1990). Diseases of young farmed crocodiles in
Papua New Guinea. Australian Veterinary Journal, 67: 323-330
12. Jacobsen, E.R. (1993). Implications of infectious diseases for captive
propagation and introduction programs of threatened/endangered reptiles.
67
Journal of Zoo and Wildlife Medicine, 24 (3): 245-255
13. Jacobsen, E.R. E.R. (1986). Viruses and viral associated diseases of
reptiles. In: Acta zoologica et pathologica antverpiensis, Vol.2, No: 79.
Maintenance and Reproduction of Reptiles in Captivity, Pp. 79-90, V.L. Bels
and A.P. Van den Sande (eds).
For a full account of the diseases of crocodiles See: Import Risk Analysis Paper for
Live Crocodilians and their Eggs. January, 2000. Australian Quarantine and
Inspection Service (AQIS), GPO Box 858, Canberra ACT 2601, Australia

http://www.iucn-isg.org/actionplan/ch3/reintroduction.php


The potential to introduce exotic pathogens into naive natural populations through release of captive reptiles is widely recognized. This route of transmission has been implicated in an epizootic outbreak of upper respiratory tract disease (URTD) in wild desert tortoises, Gopherus agassizii, in the Mojave Desert of California (Jacobsen et al. 1991). Jacobsen (1993, 1994) stresses that while reptiles can harbor an array of pathogens, the ability to screen for those few that are known to be significant is crude at best. The importance of developing pre-release health screening protocols and methods has been emphasized by a number of workers (Beck 1992; Dodd and Seigel 1991; Jacobsen 1994; Raphael 1994). Whenever feasible, in situ rearing and headstarting facilities are preferable to reduce the chances of introduction of exotic pathogens.

http://www.asih.org/files/hacc-final.pdf

c. Repatriation into the wild
Repatriation of research animals into the wild is a controversial issue. Pough (1992)
argues that release of reptiles and amphibians held in captivity “...should be prohibited in almost
all cases”, due to risk of pathogen introduction, and potential effects on natural gene pools.
However, under some circumstances, especially with respect to ecological studies that involve
integrated laboratory and field components, repatriation of captive animals may be a necessary
element to a successful research program. Release of research animals needs to be considered and
32
incorporated into the design of the study from its inception. Releases should be limited to cases
of short-term captivity where healthy animals are released at their capture location. Furthermore,
published protocols for planned releases should be followed (Jacobson, 1993; Woodford, 2001).
As a general rule, field-trapped animals should be released only:
(i) If release is not specifically prohibited by national, state, or local law.
(ii) If they are currently healthy and have been held in isolation from exotic species and
other research collections. Animals returned to the wild should never be in contact
with other species, especially exotics. Two major pathogens in amphibians,
chytrid fungi and ranavirus may have been introduced into wild populations by
humans (Daszak et al., 1999). Relatively few infectious diseases have been studied
in wild amphibians and reptiles and the exact origin of these pathogens is
unknown. Captive amphibians and reptiles can harbor pathogens that were
acquired in captivity and may serve as a vector for infecting wild populations.
(iii) At the original site of capture. Preservation of the integrity of natural gene pools
should be paramount. Conservation efforts or safety considerations may dictate
that animals be translocated. For these exceptional circumstances, prior approval
of relocation should be obtained from appropriate state and/or federal agencies,
and approved relocations should be noted in subsequent publication of research
results.
(iv) If their ability to survive in nature has not been irreversibly impaired.
(v) Where there is reasonable expectation that the released animal will re- establish its
former social status.
(vi) When local and seasonal conditions are conducive to survival.
 
Hell, Australia has pretty much banned firearms from private ownership. That's pretty much proof to me that their government is disinterested in what their subjects may think of their freedom.

I understand and you won't find much disagreement from me. However, you might not realize that I'm using the NSW law as support for my claim that there is enough of a risk to warrant criticism of your behavior.

You also might not know that I've never made any claims of fact, rather I've always maintained that I'm making an argument of degree of risk based on the most current science that I can find. You reject this science because you feel that it is conjectural and I dismiss your rejection on the grounds that you haven't read the study, which of course is not your fault. You might reconsider this rejection, though, at least until you've read the full paper.

I feel that it is obviously true, given the arguments that I've made in this thread, that releasing your corn snakes into the wild is irresponsible and should not be tolerated by a responsible community of herpers. Because of the scrutiny and negative press that the herp hobby is suffering from right now due to the python problem, it is of the utmost importance that those interested in keeping this hobby free from oppressive regulation (like Australian herpers have to deal with) err on the side of caution when it comes to releasing animals; ESPECIALLY in Florida.

This is my opinion, I feel it is obviously the correct one based on what I have observed. It is unrestricted by bias and believe me, I would rather it be the case that releasing your corns is harmless. I think it would be very exciting to find an oddly colored snake and more importantly to enjoy watching them grow and develop (assuming they might). I've always been eager to find albino animals in the field as well simply because of the oddity and shock of the find itself, but it appears to me that releasing your corns is irresponsible.

Even though I personally dislike the idea of euthanizing little corn snakes, I don't see it as unethical. The fact is that a vast number of individual organisms unnecessarily die each day due to human activity and some of these are herps that are killed on the road, or pickled by scientists, or killed in captivity by ignorant keepers, etc. It's unfortunate that individual corns must die, but this is only necessary because you want to get rid of the ones with aesthetic defects or picky eaters. It's not just a part of life, it's a part of you seeking your own satisfaction and pleasure. There's nothing unethical or wrong about you doing this, of course, but it's then your reposibility to dispose of your own problems in such a way as to prevent them from becoming others' problems.

I do not keep rattlesnakes.
 
Sorry, but this is all just getting redundant now.... So just read my last few posts again, please....
 
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