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FF, TF or not?

TandJ

TandJ

Ole' Stoic Viper...
What do we think about the ethics of force feeding/tube feeding corn babies? Good or Bad?

I simple refuse to do eithier, I have the circle of life in my racks.. Eat or be eatten.. I also refuse to be responsible for passing on crap genetics if it was truely a genetic issue, like I had with the het dilute projects..


Regards.. Tim of T and J
 
My honest opinion is "way to go". It's like the big debate on hybrids awhile back and still see it: It was labeled Creamsicle but when I breed do I have to say that. I guess the way I see it the real hobby is seeing what you can get within a project if it turns out bad so be it, don't pass it on. I also have learned don't breed just to breed, yes I did, but the results were common snakes and well worth not much. Pretty butttt.
I have watched a few small breeders on here take their time work toward a goal, it's my opinion that is the way to go.
To much get everything I can as fast as I can breed it and then pass it on, doesn't help the hobby.
 
IF it is a genetics issue. Who's is to say that it's not a behavioral issue, brought on by environment rather than genetic disposition? What makes you think genes has to do with snakes refusing to eat?

I say you put a time limit on it. If the snake doesn't start eating on it's own by year two, at least sporadically, then it should most likely be put down.
 
I view force feeding & tube feeding a little differently. I have not force fed, but I have tube fed, with some success.
I have talked with a few breeders, & with some thread posts, my view on assist feeding has changed (& I now will tube feed, whereas before, I was hesitant to do so).

I no longer believe that refusing to eat is necessarily a genetics issue. We are offering a prey that they would not normally encounter in the wild, & on top of that, domestic mice are stinky, even as pinkies. (Which is likely why washing them can be a sucessful way to get them to eat sometimes).

(My) process will be, that if a hatchling doesn't eat within the first few feedings, I will tube feed for a few feedings, then offer again. I have had success with this method, so I will continue to do so.
I have found, that if a hatchling has not eaten for a long time, likely, even tube feeding won't make a difference.

Larger scale breeders don't necessarily have the time to tube feed babies that start off slowly, & I know some will send those babies to someone to work with, who has more time to do so. I have taken in a handful of hatchlings for this purpose. I've had success with some, & have lost a few (that never ate, for months).

IMO, I would think there is a better chance of injuring the hatchling by force feeding, than tube feeding, but tube feeding does have it's risks.

My sole surviving hatchling, from an Ultramel female that gave me a surprise clutch of eggs (on 4th of July) is a prime example of successful tube feeding.
She ate 1/2 pinky the day she had her first shed, but then refused the next 3 feedings. I tube fed her a few times, then began offering pinkies again, & she has become an established eater.

I don't fault those that chose not to tube feed or force feed.
I still am at a managable level to where I can take in problem feeders & will be more than happy to work with them. It's a great feeling to see them thrive.
 
TandJ said:
What do we think about the ethics of force feeding/tube feeding corn babies? Good or Bad?

I simple refuse to do eithier, I have the circle of life in my racks.. Eat or be eatten.. I also refuse to be responsible for passing on crap genetics if it was truely a genetic issue, like I had with the het dilute projects..


Regards.. Tim of T and J
Click to expand...

I wanted to add that I agree with this. IMHO, there's no need to pass on bad genetics, & unless you are allowing someone to take that animal as a pet only, & you know they won't breed them (if the animal otherwise has good quality of life), then that is fine as well.

If Joe Smoe stated they wanted one of those animals, & then decided to breed it, (he) is continuing a line that should not be in existance.

Just my $.02 :D
 
I guess part of my thinking is in nature they would either eat or die. Yes we create a non-natural environment for them and maybe should give it some extra effort but I really don't think so. Given all circumstances are the same one eats one doesn't ????
It is however nice to see this debated peacefully, as everyone has different views and criteria on breeding.
 
How many snakes do you think refuse to eat in the wild? Honestly, as far as I know, it's something that only occurs in captivity, meaning it's CAUSED by being in captivity.
 
Interesting.. but what make you think it's not genetic but a behavioral issue. I haven't read up on the issue so I haven't a clue either way.
 
susang said:
I guess part of my thinking is in nature they would either eat or die. Yes we create a non-natural environment for them and maybe should give it some extra effort but I really don't think so. Given all circumstances are the same one eats one doesn't ????
It is however nice to see this debated peacefully, as everyone has different views and criteria on breeding.
Click to expand...

Yes, in nature they would either eat or die (if presented with natural diet). That was my thought before discussing this topic with other breeders. Since we offer a food that they would not eat in nature, we are giving them a disadvantage at surviving.

My thought now, is that if a hatchling, such as my little girl Mystery, who might not have thrived if I just left it to "eat or die", is doing quite well, on her own now, after a few tube feedings. She's now on a path of growing up to be a healthy snake.

It does make me sad about those hatchlings that otherwise could grow up to thrive, but that is a decision that each breeder has to make.
Like I said, I do not fault those who chose not to go to any additional measures.
I, personally, don't view it as "extra effort", I just think that those hatchlings that do eat right away are super easy.

I do think it's important to offer the assisted feeding, if you're going to do so. From what I have seen, when they go too long without eating, they just cannot be saved.

For my future clutches, (since this is the first year I will have my own, planned breedings) I will offer tube feeding if they do not become established eaters within the first few feedings.
 
VickyChaiTea said:
How many snakes do you think refuse to eat in the wild? Honestly, as far as I know, it's something that only occurs in captivity, meaning it's CAUSED by being in captivity.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure but I do think many species (reptiles, mammals...) fail to eat in the wild and die. It's the whole circle of life, survival of the fittest.
 
VickyChaiTea said:
How many snakes do you think refuse to eat in the wild? Honestly, as far as I know, it's something that only occurs in captivity, meaning it's CAUSED by being in captivity.
Click to expand...
IMO, I think that the majority of the "cause" of refused feedings is that we offer a food they wouldn't eat in the wild.
I am sure there are cases where some hatchlings do not start eating in the wild, but those are more likely to be genetic problems, or health problems, that likely lead to "natural selection".
 
susang said:
My honest opinion is "way to go". It's like the big debate on hybrids awhile back and still see it: It was labeled Creamsicle but when I breed do I have to say that. I guess the way I see it the real hobby is seeing what you can get within a project if it turns out bad so be it, don't pass it on. I also have learned don't breed just to breed, yes I did, but the results were common snakes and well worth not much. Pretty butttt.
I have watched a few small breeders on here take their time work toward a goal, it's my opinion that is the way to go.
To much get everything I can as fast as I can breed it and then pass it on, doesn't help the hobby.
Click to expand...

Are you asking if you need to label a Creamsickle as a hybrid? (I'm just trying to see if I am reading this right.)
If that is your question there, IMO, I do think as a breeder, it is ethical to let the buyer know (if they don't already) that it is a hybrid morph. How much % of the hybrid, is hard to say, but seeing as many buyers are not familiar with morphs & hybrids, it's our job as breeders to make sure they know what they're getting. It may not even matter to the buyer, but I still think it's important to let them know.
 
I started this thread with my personal view on the subject and it remains the same. I will no longer nurse along animals that are not doing well in captivity. What would happen in the wild to these is unknown but I suspect they would be food for other things. Would some of them find a lizard, small bird or other food item if they didn´t care for mice? Maybe, but I am breeding snakes in captivity to be sold as pets in captivity where pinky mice is the most popular and widely available food. I am in complete agreement with you Tim.
 
Sorry that was a question a time back (year or two). The fact that some breeders (newer ones) dont' want to put hybrid or try to redetermine their morph so it won't be a hybrid. It got very heated. Exactly if the buyer doesn't care and then breeds thats all I'm trying to say. Like they may not care it was a poor feeder but they should know.
nwheather said:
Are you asking if you need to label a Creamsickle as a hybrid? (I'm just trying to see if I am reading this right.)
If that is your question there, IMO, I do think as a breeder, it is ethical to let the buyer know (if they don't already) that it is a hybrid morph. How much % of the hybrid, is hard to say, but seeing as many buyers are not familiar with morphs & hybrids, it's our job as breeders to make sure they know what they're getting. It may not even matter to the buyer, but I still think it's important to let them know.
Click to expand...
 
Honestly, as far as I know, it's something that only occurs in captivity, meaning it's CAUSED by being in captivity.
Click to expand...
There's absolutely no way to know that though. I do remember reading somewhere that of wild-laid Corn eggs, only 10%* hatch and have the resulting hatchlings survive to adulthood.

Non-feeders in the wild would form a very valuable part of the food chain and wouldn't live as long as they do in captivity. Non-feeding Corn hatchlings in the wild are a resource, not a waste of life. Evolution and the balance of nature are wonderful things which take advantage of weak or non-thriving animals.

In captivity, we see the tip of the iceberg in terms of natural Corn Snake mortality in their early life.

I force fed for a few seasons. However all my force feeders eventually died, despite not regurging and apparently digesting normally after feeding. I decided that either hatchlings eat D/F, or they don't.

_______
*EDIT: Sorry - stat above should read 1%, not 10%
 
Last edited:
I am a great believer in the natural selection process.

The only time i would consider any of the options above would be if the subject was a rare subject.......

this aplies to ALL species, not just snakes........

just my opinion
 
ghosthousecorns said:
I started this thread with my personal view on the subject and it remains the same. I will no longer nurse along animals that are not doing well in captivity. What would happen in the wild to these is unknown but I suspect they would be food for other things. Would some of them find a lizard, small bird or other food item if they didn´t care for mice? Maybe, but I am breeding snakes in captivity to be sold as pets in captivity where pinky mice is the most popular and widely available food. I am in complete agreement with you Tim.
Click to expand...

I really don't like the idea of this thread. I suppose what you and Tim are saying is that..you're not going to help a helpless animal because that is how it is in nature? Mind this but humans are often born into this world and some come out normal and some don't. There are those who need help constantly and we keep them alive. If you were to be taken into both aspects of animals and humans...you wouldn't help them get started? You would just put them down or watch them suffer? If this is even right to do to animals then why don't you and many others start doing it to the unfortunate humans who come out disformed. =equality=

bitsy said:
There's absolutely no way to know that though. I do remember reading somewhere that of wild-laid Corn eggs, only 10%* hatch and have the resulting hatchlings survive to adulthood.
_______
*EDIT: Sorry - stat above should read 1%, not 10%
Click to expand...

I believe this. I watched a video on crocodiles in biology. They flim natural life to get an idea of what really happens. The female lays her eggs and rests on top of them buried in the sand. She will leave every so often then come back when time to hatch. She dug them out and by the time she had time to transfer them to the water...half were taken through air, eggs were tore open to eat, and big fish ate them. By that time she had about 5 babies...out of 50 some eggs? It's sad to watch but that is how it happens.
 
Ummm... Skully, I suspect you might not really like my view on the human race and its worth to this planet either. But you can't possibly compare the two. Apples and Oranges...
Maybe a better analogy would be a pet dog. No I wouldn't want a weak one to pass on genes that made its offspring a bad pet that didn't want to eat and wasted away for its new owner.. Only difference is that you CAN spay or neuter a dog (or a human for that matter :idea: ) making the passing on of undesirable genes a moot point.
 
I've only had one problem feeder die on me, so I don't have a lot of real life experience in the area. He came to me for free with another order, ate some meals, didn't really gain any weight, and one day was dead.

I accepted it as natural.

I feel it's un natural to force a non eating snake to eat and live. Snakes over produce knowing that not all of them will survive in the wild. In our controlled environments, many more survive than would have. Just because they can survive though, doesn't necessarily mean they should.

Considering how flooded our hobby is right now with unwanted snakes, we shouldn't be nursing sickly animals to health. Corn Snakes should need minimal assistance from us to survive.

Assist feeding an animal seems like a way of perpetuating an un natural life, and for who's benefit is this? Many people would say the snake's life, but let's get honest here and admit that keeping an animal alive that should other wise have died is really for us.

We create SO many snakes, that it seems like we will run into a lot of problems if we don't let nature take it's course at least a little, and decide when a snake just shouldn't make it.
 
ghosthousecorns said:
Ummm... Skully, I suspect you might not really like my view on the human race and its worth to this planet either. But you can't possibly compare the two. Apples and Oranges...
Maybe a better analogy would be a pet dog. No I wouldn't want a weak one to pass on genes that made its offspring a bad pet that didn't want to eat and wasted away for its new owner.. Only difference is that you CAN spay or neuter a dog (or a human for that matter :idea: ) making the passing on of undesirable genes a moot point.
Click to expand...

I don't know if I am understanding right but I value equality in life. I don't value the human race as you nor the animals. I value the life of an animal compared to a human. We act as rulers and take the lives of animals that could completely live a healthy life with a little boost. If you guys are talking about how you put a snake down because of bad genes...then I don't like it...it's a value of life I respect. Those snakes could live fine with help if needed but just don't breed them.

If their life is acceptable to living with a few changes then let them but if not I understand...(such as: guts hanging out, deformaty beyond comfortablity..etc)

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding.
 
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