Some thoughts on deciding to euthanize poor feeders

On my clutch # 4 this year I got an incredible 6 male cinders, well that's great except that only one ate well and so far I have had to euthanize 4 of them. They all ate once after hatching but then wouldn't eat and wouldn't eat and 4 just got to looking skinny. I tried f/t, live, tease feeding and scenting with various things. There was one other problem feeder male cinder in the clutch that I didn't euthanize and he finally took a f/t tease fed for me yesterday - only his second meal since hatching. But I am also ready to euthanize him if he doesn't keep eating and the only reason I had not done so yet was because he looked a bit bigger and in better shape than the rest that I did put down. Of course every single normal in the clutch ate like crazy and took off running.
I guess I could have nursed those 4 cinders along and tried to force or pump feed them to get them eating but for what? I'm not willing to sell undersized or poor feeders and later have people say I sold them a picky eater or worse the snake dies on them. I'm not willing to give them away as pets because I'm too worried people will want to breed it because it's a cinder. I got cinders from 3 other clutches that are all strong and eating well so luckily I can opt for probably better breeding stock as keepers.
I feel I gave these snakes every chance and euthanized them once their condition got too far gone. I'm OK with the decision I made to remove them from any potential future gene pool. But, I'd kinda like to know what others would have done in my shoes.

I wish I had your resolve, to be honest. I've always kept non-feeders going until the bitter end on supplements - they can last for several months while I run through a routine of all the feeding tricks in turn. But I'm not sure it's that humane, really.

Since you had 3 cinders from other clutches, I would have done what you did.

If I'd had no cinders from other clutches, I'd have wanted to do what you did, but I can't say I trust myself 100% to euthanize the only examples of my target morph that I'd waited years for. I think that would be best, though, and to try again with next year's babies.

I have a no-live rule. So far I've stuck to that. When hatchlings start getting skinny from not eating, they go.

I don't euthanize any of mine unless they have both significant deformities AND don't eat..... so I've actually only euthanized three of them ever, and it kind of made me sad, but I didn't want to see them suffer. I typically work with my nonfeeders for at least a month and then offer them up as freebies after I have exhausted myself trying. When they are advertised as free (with cost of shipping if applicable), I always get multiple people wanting them right away. I do look for people with some experience and ask them to let me know if they have any success. Quite often I do hear back from them with success stories. Whether it's a change in environment, being shipped across the country, using different technique or more persistence..... who knows? I just know that every time someone notifies me with one of those success stories about my babies, it makes me really happy that I didn't euthanize.

I do get wanting to give them every chance, to help them live, but I also have to ask myself, if they were meant to live. In the wild, only the strong survive. If they're not thriving as babies, maybe they're not meant to live.
Back to giving them extra effort, I would be open to them going to someone I know that wants to give it the extra chance, & would keep it as a pet only, regardless of the morph. If it's not thriving, you wonder if there's a genetic problem, & I agree with you Jen, I would not want that to be bred. You work hard to produce healthy/hardy snakes, & you don't want to dilute that gene pool if there's weak genetics in play, with the non feeders/problem feeders.
I haven't started breeding yet, as I'm building my breeding stock, but that's my rookie $.02

I for one love love the challenge of gettin non feeders to eat I gladly take em off yohr hands lets make a deal

thats why if I do start to realy beed i'm getting a king just incase there is nothing to do the king can have a snack

nwheather said:

I do get wanting to give them every chance, to help them live, but I also have to ask myself, if they were meant to live. In the wild, only the strong survive. If they're not thriving as babies, maybe they're not meant to live.

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DYK except in the wild, they could go find whatever they wanted to eat, what was natural for a hatchling cornsnake, which would most likely be baby anoles. Most people don't supply baby lizards to their non-feeders. I'm not saying that is a _bad_ thing, if your goal is to produce baby cornsnakes that easily take rodent pinks.

Nanci said:

DYK except in the wild, they could go find whatever they wanted to eat, what was natural for a hatchling cornsnake, which would most likely be baby anoles. Most people don't supply baby lizards to their non-feeders. I'm not saying that is a _bad_ thing, if your goal is to produce baby cornsnakes that easily take rodent pinks.

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True & I was going on the assumption that in general, (not just in Jen's case) various options have been tried, such as anole scenting, paper bag, reheating, braining, on the washer &/or car ride, etc. & not just offering a pinky a couple times.

I have a couple babies that came to me right after their first shed, & were slow to start eating. I have two babies from a clutch of problem feeders. I took in 5, & got 4 of them to start eating, although they took a while to get started. One of them went to a friend, when I didn't have any luck getting him to eat, & after a few tries, she got him to eat. Unfortunately, he'll only eat live, at this point. My babies from that clutch are now strong eaters.

Also, I'm looking at this from a breeders point of view. Many established breeders have several clutches, & at what point do you make that decision, when you have some babies still refusing to eat, & you have all of those pinkies going to waste?

I did offer scented with a lizard - it didn't work.
But if I got it feeding steadily on lizard scented and it was still not willing to eat unscented I still wouldn't feel right to sell it. Who has a supply of f/t lizards on hand? (except maybe people who can catch them where they live)
Nor would I want to buy one which only takes scented with lizards. What a snake naturally does in the wild is different from what I expect from a snake that is destined to be a pet and possibly breeder. Being reluctant to take pinkies would be something I'd steer clear of.
I know it gives us all a warm fuzzy feeling inside when that non eater actually eats but I just won't jump through that many hoops to get them going any more. I feel even though it's great to save the individual it is potentially doing damage to the genepool of the species as a big picture when we nurse and coddle along the weaker corns that naturally would die without our intervention.

Nanci said:

DYK except in the wild, they could go find whatever they wanted to eat, what was natural for a hatchling cornsnake, which would most likely be baby anoles. Most people don't supply baby lizards to their non-feeders. I'm not saying that is a _bad_ thing, if your goal is to produce baby cornsnakes that easily take rodent pinks.

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My post sounded kinda harsh, & I want to clarify. I want to give the babies every chance at living, & it makes it tough not knowing if there is a genetic problem that could be why they're not thriving.
My heart goes out to the special ones, but at the same time, if they're not thriving, I worry about them suffering.

I want to be clear that it's not like I offered pinks a couple of times and then gave up. I actually consider myself to be rather good at getting noneaters to eat by tease feeding. I've had great success with teasing. I also tried braining, live, overnight, just a pinky head, scented with tuna, chicken broth, lizard etc. I had the snakes for quite a while and tried every week for a couple of months. I did not make the decision to put them down lightly or because I was too lazy to keep trying. It was when they began to look very thin that I felt it was time to put them down. After that they would have been wasting away. I think what I did is kinder than forcing something to stay alive because you want to save it.

It sounds harsh, but i keep the animal going until it dies naturally. Thats how it happens in the wild. And speaking of, im not beyond offering non-rodent prey items. Giving up simply doesnt exist in my book.

I should clarify that the last sentence in my last post wasnt meant to imply that anyone simply gave up and put down there animals without giving them every chance to survive.

I had to euthanize my first 2 hatchling this year, and didn't take the decision lightly either. They were pretty little amel stripes and had neurological issues as well as not feeding. I waited until they started looking weak to euthanize them, but probably should have done it at the get go due to their other issues. Problem is I now have 2 butter stripes in the same situation from the females second clutch...they're neuro issues are not nearly as pronounced, but these babies are definitely not "normal." I'm having a hard time convincing myself to euthanize b/c they're sooo pretty, but even if they did eat, they could not be sold/given away and I don't have room to care for "special" animals for the next 20 years.

I know everyone has their opinion about when euthanasia is appropriate, but honestly I feel like as long as it's done humanely, the breeder/owner's decidion is acceptable regardless of the timing. Along these same lines, I sometimes wonder how animal rescues can focus so much of their efforts and funding on single animals (say, treating broken bones or treating for heartworms) when HEALTHY animals are being euthanized.

Jen, I completely support your method, and think you took the right course of action. It's really too bad that these were your pride and joy target morphs, but I think it's a very practical move not to add them to your gene pool.
It's probably even a better idea to keep them out of it considering the problems that older female had, and the fact that the majority of the babies are having problems.. that is really terrible. Perhaps it has something to do with the line? If that's the case it seems like extra measures should be taken in order to make sure every animal that does reproduce is a strong eater.

This is so sad, I wish they were all strong eaters for ya, but I think it's so respectable what you're doing. That must be a hard decision to make, but I feel it's the right one. I too have "some are just not meant to live" theory, but if the majority of the clutch is not eating, that just seems so weird!!

I'm going to PM you.

I don't for a minute think you did the wrong thing. If all reasonable effort has been made then euthanisation is, for me, the best answer. Passsing poor or non-feeders to someone else at worst prolongs their death, and if they do eventually start eating means a possibility of those snakes passing on their quirks.
I've got my epic struggle to keep Lil as a lesson for me. I love her and she's got a forever home with me, but I can never risk breeding her.
I've actually got a whole clutch of bad feeders in my freezer and they are being picked up at the weekend as food for hatchling king cobras. As sad as euthanising them made me I'm happy that they will be helping to produce healthy cobras.

:shrugs:
Jessica I am not sure what to say here except, Maybe I phrased it wrong. The majority of this clutch did fine. They were mostly normals. It was only the cinders in the clutch that would not eat.
I am not sure what older female you were referring to. The other cinder I lost this year was not related to this clutch at all, was never big enough to breed. She was purchased from serpenco as an undersized 06 and grew a little for me here but ultimately passed away. The thread I have about it is entitled "Zarrah a red cinder girl" is that what you meant? Absolutely no relation to any other cinders I have. All the other ones I have sold or kept are in great health except the noneaters discussed in this thread.

diamondlil said:

I've actually got a whole clutch of bad feeders in my freezer and they are being picked up at the weekend as food for hatchling king cobras. As sad as euthanising them made me I'm happy that they will be helping to produce healthy cobras.

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I feel the same way, as my MBK get the f/t culls every so often. But for the most part I give them mice.
I did what I felt was right and would do it again.

:-offtopic I have had several people offering to take that last non feeder cinder at this point and it's getting a little frustrating. If I get him turned around and he stats eating regularly for me here I may offer him for sale once I get him established as a slow starter with a reduced price tag but if he doesn't eat for me here he will be euthanized. Sorry to be harsh about it folks but the intent of this thread was not to rehome the snake.

To each his/her own.
Personally I tube feed a high protein ferret food diet, if they refuse to eat, for a few times. It's been my observation that ferret food actually causes them to grow faster than their pinky eating brethren. Then they almost always take a pinky on their own after doing this, a few weeks down the road.
More and more research and studies have been coming out about certain species of snakes (especially corns) and what they live and thrive off of in the wild. As Nanci stated earlier, the corn snake's natural food source is lizard, this includes the specific movement of the lizards too, not just the smell. I can understand how a newly hatched corn would be turned off of eating something it doesn't naturally eat. I just wanted to note that, just because they don't eat, it doesn't mean that they are actually 'not healthy snakes'.
I'm not saying that you did the wrong thing, because I totally do agree that selling or giving away a snake that refuses to eat the only readily available food source for most people, is a bad idea and would eventually come back and possibly bite you in the rear. But something to keep in mind, if it is a snake YOU choose to keep and possibly breed down the road.