Power feeding

[wstphal]

I can't hold a candle to the knowledge that a person like Don Soderberg has. I can only regurgitate the information that was passed onto me. I once thought like you and so many others do. I would get into debates regarding breeding as it relates to size and age until I was corrected by a person that doesn't think that they are right, but knows it. With Absolution!

So, I'm not trying to be rude. Far from it. I'm just trying to help some people understand what little I know. It's not about categorizing, it's about evaluating and understanding. To categorize is dangerous.

That's useful info. Thanks!

 

[bondoron]

I guess I am advocating for safety for the snakes. For hobby breeders, what's the downside in waiting until 3 years as well as 3 feet & 300 gms? I'd rather skip that one clutch to reduce the risk to the snake, especially if female. For the boys, if they are willing, the only risk I can think of is that he may not be fertile even though he's willing.

Mind you, if Kathy Love, or Don Soderberg, or Rich Zuchowski, or Jeff Mohr, or Chuck Pritzel, or lots of other really knowledgeable people, looks at a snake & thinks "ready to breed" they know profoundly more than me, so I wouldn't advocate for them to wait for that rule of 3s. They KNOW what they are doing. Heck, their left pinkie fingers know more about cornsnake breeding than I do.

I just think the rule of 3s is really good for people who are new to breeding cornsnakes. It keeps our snakes safe while we gain experience.

The 3 rule is a guide, just as the Munson Plan or anything else written about snakes. These are not laws, they are just a starting point. There are some snakes that fit the three rule and should not be bred. There are also two year olds that can breed. If in doubt don't breed, if your new to snakes don't breed early. If you know your animals and know what you are doing then go for it. I know there is at least one person in your list that has broke the 3 rule, however they do know what they are doing and know what to watch for.

 

[Teddy Roosevelt]

The 3 rule is a guide, just as the Munson Plan or anything else written about snakes. These are not laws, they are just a starting point. There are some snakes that fit the three rule and should not be bred. There are also two year olds that can breed. If in doubt don't breed, if your new to snakes don't breed early. If you know your animals and know what you are doing then go for it. I know there is at least one person in your list that has broke the 3 rule, however they do know what they are doing and know what to watch for.

And, as I tried to say to Wayne (but it must have been miscommunicated) I believe that's the only point Betsy was trying to make. No one in this thread ever once said "The rule of 3's is absolute and anyone not following it is an doo-doo head who doesn't know what they're doing", just that it's a good guideline for beginners who DON'T know their snake or what a safe time for it to breed is.

 

[wstphal]

And, as I tried to say to Wayne (but it must have been miscommunicated) I believe that's the only point Betsy was trying to make. No one in this thread ever once said "The rule of 3's is absolute and anyone not following it is an doo-doo head who doesn't know what they're doing", just that it's a good guideline for beginners who DON'T know their snake or what a safe time for it to breed is.

Lexie has summed up my point perfectly. Thanks Lexie!

 

[medusacoils]

And, as I tried to say to Wayne (but it must have been miscommunicated) I believe that's the only point Betsy was trying to make. No one in this thread ever once said "The rule of 3's is absolute and anyone not following it is an doo-doo head who doesn't know what they're doing", just that it's a good guideline for beginners who DON'T know their snake or what a safe time for it to breed is.

Support your claim!

I have it under good authority that the "rules of three" are absurd. They aren't worth the effort of parroting! It's just regurgitated forum misinformation.

Lexie, I am going to quote the actual phrases, sent to me by a VERY reputable person, in Email. Right after I made the same claim as you.

It's utterly absurd. I believe that the 3/3/300 nonsense was borne from someone's idea that it was catching and cute. It is absolutely stupid. Many corns NEVER reach 300 grams. I have successfully bred female corns at nine months of age, and breed sub two-year olds every single year. The idea that young male corns should not be bred is embarrassingly comical. How on Earth would a young male be adversely affected by young breeding? There are certain protocols and guidelines that should be followed when breeding "young" males OR females, but to say it cannot or should not be done is reckless and self-incriminating ( on the part of those that promote such uneducated rantings ).

You may tell these people that they have NO proof of the validity of the catchy 3/3/300 term. It makes no sense at all, and very recklessly mis-educates forum frequenters and corn snake keepers. It's utterly absurd to expect someone to wait until a female corn is 300 grams, as those animals are a strong minority in the ranks of captive corns. Such a guideline disqualifies the majority of captive female corns. It's embarrassing to say this has any validity in the realm of corn snake breeding.

source-Don S (South Mountain Reptiles)

Hope this helps!

Wayne

 

[Darcpixie]

You know, while the restrictiveness of the 3/3/300 policy may seem absurd to don, an I can understand that, I think continuing to recommend it may be of use in advocating for people with less experience to stop and get to know their snake first.

Once one is comfortable with assessing size and muscle tone against standards that one has set, I would then recommend modifying breeding decisions based on the individual snake.

While a scathing rejection of a guideline presented for those with a brand new snake who want to breed days after they buy, I'm not sure how these recommendations are HARMFUL?

What would you suggest then, don?

 

[Teddy Roosevelt]

Support your claim!

I have it under good authority that the "rules of three" are absurd. They aren't worth the effort of parroting! It's just regurgitated forum misinformation.

Lexie, I am going to quote the actual phrases, sent to me by a VERY reputable person, in Email. Right after I made the same claim as you.





source-Don S (South Mountain Reptiles)

Hope this helps!

Wayne

Ok, alright. You are right and I am wrong. I really don't even care to argue this point as it matters very little to me as a hobbyist, rather than a breeder, but it's clear it's very important for you to debunk so there. It's debunked. What exactly WOULD you recommend newbie breeders such as OP do, then?

 

[medusacoils]

You know, while the restrictiveness of the 3/3/300 policy may seem absurd to don, an I can understand that, I think continuing to recommend it may be of use in advocating for people with less experience to stop and get to know their snake first.

Once one is comfortable with assessing size and muscle tone against standards that one has set, I would then recommend modifying breeding decisions based on the individual snake.

While a scathing rejection of a guideline presented for those with a brand new snake who want to breed days after they buy, I'm not sure how these recommendations are HARMFUL?

What would you suggest then, don?

Well I'm not Don but I do find a problem with your suggestion. You are still telling uneducated forum frequenters that it's ok to breed a snake as long as it's 3 years old, 3 feet long and 300 grams, when that is wrong. Just because a snake is 3/3/300 doesn't always mean that it's ok to breed. It may need to be 4/3/250 or 2/2.8/320 or whatever. The 3/3/300 "rule" or "guideline" is dangerous misinformation. You could be setting up "newbies" for disaster, unintentionally.

Ok, alright. You are right and I am wrong. I really don't even care to argue this point as it matters very little to me as a hobbyist, rather than a breeder, but it's clear it's very important for you to debunk so there. It's debunked. What exactly WOULD you recommend newbie breeders such as OP do, then?

Read previous answer to Darcpixie to understand. It's not important to me, per se. I have a good idea of what to look for when dealing with my own animals. I just don't want to see known unsubstanciated misinformation being passed around to people who do not know one way or another.

Wouldn't you rather see correct information passed around, instead of misinformation? :shrugs:

Listen, I am 100% for safe breeding practices. Each person needs to learn to identify what is considered safe and what is not, then make a best guess decision. They need to look at muscle tone, size, eating habits and health to determine breeding conditioning. 300 grams does not automatically mean, "safe for breeding". We, as keepers and breeders, need to stop teaching people that they need to be grouping individual animals into a breeding category. We should be teaching them what to look for.

JMO!

Wayne

 

[dionythicus]

I don't think I've ever seen 3/3/300 used as an absolute. It's a suggested guideline, like the Munson plan is a guideline for feeding. It's not exact, but to me its a good rule of thumb to assess a female's condition, a place to start. Its also a better way to explain to newbies that they need to make sure their female has good weight and maturity to breed. I don't think its propaganda.

 

[Christen]

I know that this forum started as far as power feeding and now has gone on to breeding. I can not tell you that I am a advocate of breeding at a year old as with all other kinds of animals including people it is not healthy to breed at a young age.

I have never power fed my snakes they ate a pinky every 5 days till they were on bigger pray and now they eat once a week. But I had a couple that by the time they were 1 year old a male of mine he was 2 1/2 feet and a female was 3 foot. Nothing different than any other snakes that I had, just that they were going to be big snakes no matter how I fed them. So if they are going to be big snakes they will be but there is no need to rush it.

When I feed my snakes they all go into their bins lined up and it is my husbands job to watch them while I clean out tanks. I have said it before and I will continue to say it. He was been fired because those same snakes decided to "join" together. It was a clutch of 12 eggs with 13 healthy babies that are all eating great and in their new homes now. Except the 5 I kept. We were only going to keep 3 but I couldn't let go of my twins.

But really the moral of my story is you really do have to be experience to decide when a snake is ready for breeding. Would I have chose to breed them just yet, no, but I wouldn't have bred them period, but oh well we have great batch of babies

 

[Darcpixie]

So if a snake, by someone else's estimation, is ready to breed at 2 years old, 2 and a half feet long, and 250 grams, what, again, is HARMFUL about recommending for people that are not good at doing the evaluation themselves to wait until all 3 criteria are met?

So even if Don would have bred her, this person waits another year. The snake is now 3 years old, and a bit bigger, and hopefully with better muscle tone.

HOW is this horrible forum misinformation?

For the example of the 4 year old, that was 3 feet long but 250 grams, as it hadn't reached 300 grams, in all likelyhood either they would have ASKED another breeder at 3 years old, or just waited to see if they could put more weight/muscle on her for the next year!

What one generally wants to AVOID is the person who has had their snake for 2 months trying to breed a yearling because the other guidelines are VAGUE. This one is just supposed to be a rule of thumb, not the law, but puts CLOSER to the correct timeframes and size into someone's head.

*sufficient muscle tone and size* would work great for Don. He has lots of cornsnakes that have bred for him, and has a feel for the proper size/tone/body type. It's hard to pass a *feeling* on to others without some sort of drastic generalization.

Now keep in mind, all of this is in reference to the female, for me. The male just needs to not be a snack, and have reached sexual maturity. Be that at 9, 19, or 90 months of age.

I hope Don has some additional insight, as I would be interested to know better criteria!

 

[medusacoils]

Darcy,

Breeding itself is a risk. Breeding an animal because it fits into a category is dangerous. It's dangerous because it takes the "common sense" aspect out of the equation. It means that you don't have to evaluate your snake. You just have to reach some point of measure, a finish line and it's good to go. That's what's wrong with the 3/3/300 rule. It's a cop out. It's a lazy mans tool. It's not safe.

I would rather say that yeah, your snake should be this, look like this, get this and then if you feel comfortable, it's safe to breed. Rather than a generic guideline.

I'm all for advocating safety and common sense when it comes to breeding. It's learning and teaching what to look for, how to evaluate and how to prepare for breeding. The 3/3/300 "rule" or "guideline" isn't even close to what a snake has to be, before you can breed them.

Honestly, I think you and I are looking for and at the same thing. The safety of the animal we are keeping and breeding. I completely understand what you are saying. I have made that very same argument before. I felt strongly about the guideline and it's validity.

Then it was explained to me that it's not science, it's not sound and it's not valid. It's not even close. I only put up a little of the conversation I had with Don. I have over 4 days of Emails teaching me about this very subject.

I, by no means, am claiming to be some kind of expert. NOT EVEN CLOSE. I can see how it's wrong and dangerous.

:cheers:

Wayne

 

[medusacoils]

I don't think I've ever seen 3/3/300 used as an absolute. It's a suggested guideline, like the Munson plan is a guideline for feeding. It's not exact, but to me its a good rule of thumb to assess a female's condition, a place to start. Its also a better way to explain to newbies that they need to make sure their female has good weight and maturity to breed. I don't think its propaganda.

It is propaganda. It's regurgitated forum misinformation. Read Kathy Loves, Don Soderberg or just about any other legitimate book and it's not in there.

My question to you is, "Where does the 3/3/300 rule begin to assess the condition of a snake?"

It doesn't! It just gives you a dangerous generic goal to reach before you get the green light.

The part that is dangerous about it, is that it takes the work out of making a good sound decision. Just because a snake is 300 grams. That doesn't mean it's good weight. It just means the snake is 300 grams. Not conditioned for breeding.

Then there is the 3 years thing. Age has little to nothing to do with sexual maturity in corns. It's mostly dependent on size, weight, condition and diet.

We are all stuck in the preconceived notion that maturity comes with age. In mammals, that's true. It's not the same in reptiles. A reptile will not breed unless it's mature enough. We need to make that distinction.

With that said, I don't advocate breeding 2 year olds. I know you can, but don't feel comfortable doing it. I have bred only one 3 year old. The rest of my snakes won't breed until they are at least four. Not because I am concerned with maturity, but because I am in no rush to develop a corn for the sake of breeding. I have a plan in mind. I also want to make sure that my snakes are conditioned where it will be "safe" to breed.

That's what it all boils down to. Safety!

Wayne

 

[dionythicus]

I need to hear the definition of exactly when a female is mature. Where is that in anyone's book?

 

[Darcpixie]

Or at least an OVER estimation. Please? If you could make EVERYTHING optimal, what would happen?

As I said, if it prevents the breeding of a young female that would be damaged by the early egg laying, what is the HARM?

 

[Teddy Roosevelt]

Wayne, you say that your concern is safety and that the 3/3/300 rule is dangerous because it doesn't make the breeder evaluate the overall health of their snake, but rather their size and age. Well I say to you, your "rule" of "whenever it has decent muscle tone and it's and adult" is even more dangerous, because, and it may shock you to know this, there are lots of people out there who don't know exactly where that point is like you and Don do. Those people are going to see your "rule" and decide, My yearling is pretty muscular, she can probably breed now! There are people who come on here every day asking how they can breed their 9month old and their 8month old, who are completely ignorant to when a corn snake should and should not breed. Would you rather it be a 2/2.5/250 rule? There needs to be something simple for people new to the hobby to understand, and right now what you're arguing is too vague. Maybe for experienced breeders like yourself, and Don, it seems simple to determine when a snake is ready, but the average joe cannot.

 

[medusacoils]

I need to hear the definition of exactly when a female is mature. Where is that in anyone's book?

:shrugs:

Or at least an OVER estimation. Please? If you could make EVERYTHING optimal, what would happen?

As I said, if it prevents the breeding of a young female that would be damaged by the early egg laying, what is the HARM?

The HARM is that your taking a chance, breeding a corn that regardless of its length, weight or age, may still not be ready to breed.

Ya know, I have good deal of respect for you two, but I can see this is taking a left turn. I'm not debating the breeding of young or immature corns. Just the validity of lumping them into a category that is based on age, weight and length. Something that should be considered, amongst other things, with the exception of age.

So, if you want to stick to some generic predetermined "goal", then so be it. I will continue to advocate for the evaluation of individual animals, to determine breeding readiness.

Wayne

PS, Lexie, sorry to leave you out, but you mentioned earlier on this thread that you didn't want to get into it and I'm respecting your wishes. unch:

 

[Darcpixie]

I never would want someone to breed an animal that is not ready. But do you think that you could get us some sort of pictoral description, or *not ready* vs. *ready* values?

At the risk of sounding insane, I LIKE the 3/3/300 rule because it puts people in the right BALLPARK. EVERY ANIMAL IS AN INDIVIDUAL. But for those of us without an adult female, how are we to judge? Know that what we THINK is a animal that's ready is an animal that's not?

Dismissal of the 3/3/300 criteria is fine and dandy... But what is the NEW criteria?

 

[medusacoils]

I never would want someone to breed an animal that is not ready. But do you think that you could get us some sort of pictoral description, or *not ready* vs. *ready* values?

At the risk of sounding insane, I LIKE the 3/3/300 rule because it puts people in the right BALLPARK. EVERY ANIMAL IS AN INDIVIDUAL. But for those of us without an adult female, how are we to judge? Know that what we THINK is a animal that's ready is an animal that's not?

Dismissal of the 3/3/300 criteria is fine and dandy... But what is the NEW criteria?

Darcy, I have no idea what the new criteria is, or if there is a new criteria. I'm not inventing this stuff. I'm going off something that I was taught by a reputable member of our community.

I dismiss the 3/3/300 criteria because it isn't a criteria. It's just a catchy phrase that has been spread around for years. A corn doesn't need to be 3 years old to safely breed. It doesn't need to be 300 grams to safely breed. It doesn't even need to be 3 feet to safely breed. They can safely breed smaller or larger than all that.

This year I bred a 288gram female. She obviously didn't meet the 300gram mark, even though she was close. She wasn't even 3 years old. She was only 31 months. She bred and laid fine. Her eggs are hatching now and I see absolutely nothing wrong with this clutch.

I know there are many people who don't follow the 3's thing. They breed animals very successfully! They stick to evaluating animals individually.

If your really interested in finding out what you should be looking for, then maybe you should Email Don S directly. That's what I did. I think I am a better judge of MY collection for doing it.

:cheers:

Wayne

 

[Daenerys]

So, you want to tell people new to corn snakes "oh don't listen to that rule, you can breed your snake earlier than 3/3/300 as long as she has good muscle tone etc" and the risk them breeding a female too young? I completely understand everyone's point about the 3/3/300 rule being good guidelines. What is the harm in telling newbies of this rule, and then adding on "as long as she has good muscle tone" or some other tidbit of info as well? I think its a great thing to have something that is easy enough to understand for new people to use as a guideline, because I have never bred a snake before and I am not sure I would know just what to look for...I'd feel a lot better waiting for my snake to be older or bigger rather than risk breeding her young.