New snake regurgitated!!!

[toonytrolly]

I'm relatively new to owning cornsnakes, but I've been researching how to look after one for MONTHS and thought things were going fine until today. I got him about a week ago, I think he's roughly a year old, and I have not handled him since placing him in his tank. I waited 6 days before feeding him to allow him time to settle in, the temps all seemed good (the only thing I was displeased about was that I had to use a red bulb awaiting a UTH) but the warm side averaged 80-85 with the cool side staying at a steady 70 degrees. He has two hides, on both sides of his tank, but seems to prefer the bigger one at the warm end. I even checked the temps inside his tank with a heat gun, and they never exceeded 86 at the highest. He seemed to be doing alright, coming out daily to drink some water and explore the fake plants in his tank, but tonight I noticed him with his mouth hanging open and rushed over to see what was going on - he regurgitated the mouse I fed him yesterday whole. I'm in a state of panic and confusion at the moment, and desperately trying to figure out how to set up his newly arrived UTH without stressing him out. Does anyone have any possible explanations for why he would have regurgitated? I'm really concerned about him, and I can't really think of a reason for him to have regurgitated....

 

[Karl_Mcknight]

it could be many reasons.
1). Temps not tight - But you've stated they are
2). Rough handling after feeding (you should not handle for 2 to 3 days after they eat)
3). He could be sick (parasites, stomach blockage, respiratory virus, other) a vet visit may be needed.
4). About to shed (although this rarely causes regurg- but I have heard of it)

Most of the cases I've personally heard about regarding regurg, have been due to improper temps and/or improper handling.

 

[daddio207]

What is his weight and length ?
Where did he come from?
Order Nutri-Bac now Since you want to wait 5-7 days before feeding again.
Read the Regurge protocol thread.
Your temps are right but keep in mind that temp guns read temperature of objects not ambient temps which is the air that surrounds that object (not room temp) So if your temp gun reads 86 the air temp surrounding that object might be a lot lower depending on how the object sheds heat. All that being said since your using a heat lamp then chances are the ambient and air temps in the tank are probably higher than what the gun reads.
Another reason is if you fed frozen thawed the mouse was bad or improperly thawed.

 

[DollysMom]

Welcome to the forum.

Can't add to what Karl said except that too large prey could be added to his list. I recommend you read the regurge protocol

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28342

and wait at least 8 to 10 days before trying again and then half the size of his normal prey. Smaller is safer. You can also try dusting with Nutribac and cutting slits in the thawed mouse to allow the stomach acids in more quickly.

Many of us routinely give a new or newly moved snake half size prey the first feeding.

Best wishes. It's a rough start and I hope things get better soon!

 

[toonytrolly]

What is his weight and length ?
Where did he come from?
Order Nutri-Bac now Since you want to wait 5-7 days before feeding again.
Read the Regurge protocol thread.
Your temps are right but keep in mind that temp guns read temperature of objects not ambient temps which is the air that surrounds that object (not room temp) So if your temp gun reads 86 the air temp surrounding that object might be a lot lower depending on how the object sheds heat. All that being said since your using a heat lamp then chances are the ambient and air temps in the tank are probably higher than what the gun reads.
Another reason is if you fed frozen thawed the mouse was bad or improperly thawed.

I haven't been able to weigh or measure him, because I haven't wanted to add to his stress level by handling him. As for the temps, I not only use the heat gun - but 3 extra thermometers in the tank to check ambient temps in both the middle and opposing sides, and they all read correct temps. Right now, though, I took his lamp away in fear that it was upsetting him - and the temp from the UTH is maintaining 85 degrees, but everywhere else seems cold now. I'm not really sure how to remedy that.... But I don't want to risk the light if it was causing problems, so I might have to look into a heater. I DID thaw the mouse overnight, is it possible that maybe I left it out too long and something happened to it? It was only a hopper - about the same width as his body.

 

[toonytrolly]

Welcome to the forum.

Can't add to what Karl said except that too large prey could be added to his list. I recommend you read the regurge protocol

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28342

and wait at least 8 to 10 days before trying again and then half the size of his normal prey. Smaller is safer. You can also try dusting with Nutribac and cutting slits in the thawed mouse to allow the stomach acids in more quickly.

Many of us routinely give a new or newly moved snake half size prey the first feeding.

Best wishes. It's a rough start and I hope things get better soon!

Sorry for the double post - I forgot to click on the multiquote button... I've heard varying things about Nutribac, lots of positive but also that it contains milk bacteria which aren't found naturally in a snake's gut? I DID try to actually downsize the prey that they told me to feed him with a hopper instead of a full sized mouse, but as I mentioned prior I DID let it thaw overnight and I'm not sure if that could have caused problems... As long as the Nutribac is safe to use, I have no problems ordering it - I'm just a little worried because I read some varied reviews.

 

[DollysMom]

Trying Nutribac or not is certainly your judgement call. Many have used it successfully and at worst it seems to do no harm. I have some on hand just in case, but I haven't had a regurge, so can't attest to it personally. Kathy Love has great success with it. Whatever you do, I wish you and your snake the best.

 

[Karl_Mcknight]

........... but as I mentioned prior I DID let it thaw overnight and I'm not sure if that could have caused problems......

Well now, that raises a whole new set of possibilities ......

How did you thaw it? Set it on a counter and let it sit all night?

The preferred method to thaw a frozen mouse is to run some hot water from the tap, (do not boil it) place the mouse in the hot water. If it's a smaller size mouse it will thaw in about 15 minutes, if it's a bigger mouse give it 30 minutes. Once thawed, feed it right away.

If you thawed a mouse overnight, did you warm it up prior to feeding? Snakes are able to smell and feel the heat coming from an animal. A dead mouse will be cold. A dead mouse out of the refrigerator will be even colder. This does not appeal to a snake and it's probably not good for a snake either.

By thawing the mouse in hot water you're doing 2 things - 1). Thawing out a frozen mouse, and 2). applying heat to a dead creature thereby tricking the snake into thinking it's still alive.

And lastly, if you thawed the mouse overnight at room temperature, it could have started to spoil or decompose. Humans don't thaw our food that way, you probably shouldn't do it for an animal either. And if you thawed it overnight in the refrigerator, then it could have still been frozen in the middle or it might have been too cold for him when he was fed.

If you read the articles about regurgitation, there is one that specifically talks about proper thawing, and not feeding cold or spoiled rodents...etc......

 

[daddio207]

He has to be HUGE for around a year old if they were feeding him adult mice and suggested down sizing to a hopper. Would help to know his weight.

 

[Karl_Mcknight]

My snake is only about 10 months old, (a year in February) and he weighs 141 grams, and according to the Munson chart I should feed him a "Weanling" on a weekly basis. I buy my mice from a local store, and they package them as - "Pinkies, Small, Medium, Large, and Jumbo." Regardless of what somebody calls it, a 20 gram mouse is still a 20 gram mouse. You and I may call it a Weanling, but the boxes I buy say "Large Mice" on them. I get them 4 to a box and they vary in weight from 18 to 21 grams each. They are the Right Size for my snake according to the Munson chart, but the box still says "Large Mice" on it.

I have a feeling this guys snake is probably about the same size as mine, although he is reluctant to post pictures or info about it. The snake should probably be eating a "Call it what you want" 18 to 20 gram mouse. If he did in fact get one much bigger, then you are correct, it might have been too big for the snake. But if I had to put money on the bet, I'm gonna say his temps are incorrect.

 

[toonytrolly]

My snake is only about 10 months old, (a year in February) and he weighs 141 grams, and according to the Munson chart I should feed him a "Weanling" on a weekly basis. I buy my mice from a local store, and they package them as - "Pinkies, Small, Medium, Large, and Jumbo." Regardless of what somebody calls it, a 20 gram mouse is still a 20 gram mouse. You and I may call it a Weanling, but the boxes I buy say "Large Mice" on them. I get them 4 to a box and they vary in weight from 18 to 21 grams each. They are the Right Size for my snake according to the Munson chart, but the box still says "Large Mice" on it.

I have a feeling this guys snake is probably about the same size as mine, although he is reluctant to post pictures or info about it. The snake should probably be eating a "Call it what you want" 18 to 20 gram mouse. If he did in fact get one much bigger, then you are correct, it might have been too big for the snake. But if I had to put money on the bet, I'm gonna say his temps are incorrect.

I'm trying my best not to stress him out at this point by extra handling, but I lifted up his rock to get a picture of him.

(http://imgur.com/O8tAbaC.jpg <-- link in case the picture doesn't load for any reason)
I fed him a hopper, about the exact same width as his body - rather than the adult mouse the store I bought him from was trying to sell me. As I stated in my first post, I have 3 thermometers and a heat gun that I use to check the temps of the tank on both ends and the middle. From everything I've read and been told here, they're normal. Hot side is low 80s (around 83-4 usually), cool side is a steady 70 - on both the temp gun and the gauges on the wall.

He has to be HUGE for around a year old if they were feeding him adult mice and suggested down sizing to a hopper. Would help to know his weight.

I'm trying not to stress him out by handling him - I haven't touched him or removed him from his tank since I first got him a little over a week ago. If it would really help, though, I could try to get him out just to record his weight? I just don't wanna put him through that if it's not necessary - especially since he just regurgitated a day ago.

Well now, that raises a whole new set of possibilities ......

How did you thaw it? Set it on a counter and let it sit all night?

The preferred method to thaw a frozen mouse is to run some hot water from the tap, (do not boil it) place the mouse in the hot water. If it's a smaller size mouse it will thaw in about 15 minutes, if it's a bigger mouse give it 30 minutes. Once thawed, feed it right away.

If you thawed a mouse overnight, did you warm it up prior to feeding? Snakes are able to smell and feel the heat coming from an animal. A dead mouse will be cold. A dead mouse out of the refrigerator will be even colder. This does not appeal to a snake and it's probably not good for a snake either.

By thawing the mouse in hot water you're doing 2 things - 1). Thawing out a frozen mouse, and 2). applying heat to a dead creature thereby tricking the snake into thinking it's still alive.

And lastly, if you thawed the mouse overnight at room temperature, it could have started to spoil or decompose. Humans don't thaw our food that way, you probably shouldn't do it for an animal either. And if you thawed it overnight in the refrigerator, then it could have still been frozen in the middle or it might have been too cold for him when he was fed.

If you read the articles about regurgitation, there is one that specifically talks about proper thawing, and not feeding cold or spoiled rodents...etc......

I read on multiple sites to let it thaw overnight, but I really am starting to think that this might have been the problem... I had it wrapped in a few layers of tissue and let it sit on my counter overnight to thaw out - then heated it up under a lamp for about a minute so it was warm to the touch. He went for it immediately at the time, I didn't think there were going to be any problems, but here I am.... I don't know if overnight is long enough for a rodent to spoil, but after this experience I'm never going to try it again to find out.

My overall biggest concern right now is about the red light I was using to heat his tank - I have since removed it for a UTH, but it gets colder here and it only heats up the space immediately under where he's laying - should I be worried about the light upsetting him or keep using it to keep the ambient temperatures right? I was getting 85 degrees with the light before based on my readings, even inside the cave he likes to hide in (according to my temp gun's reading of the floor inside it), but I don't want to risk that possibly being the cause of his digestion problems. The combination of both would be far too hot for him.

 

[Karl_Mcknight]

Corn snakes are not Tropical snakes and don't require the high heat like a Boa or Python do. A corn snake in the wild experiences day time temps of around 80 and night time temps of around 60 to 70. You don't necessarily have to keep them at exactly 85 degrees all the time. In fact a more realistic situation with variable temps would be better for the snake, but can be a bit of a problem for us in getting it situated.

The thing to understand is, if the snake gets too cold for too long (below 70) it won't necessarily kill it, but the snake will assume it's winter and its metabolism will greatly slow down. A lot of folks actually like to do this with their corn snakes.

But if the snake is to be a pet and handled and observed, then you'd want to keep it active. For that it needs the higher temps and regular feeding. A snake needs the higher temps to digest its food.

The area where I live has big temperature swings from day to day. I may have to use the heat one day and the AC the next. Sometimes I just open windows. I try to keep "My Temperatures" around 74 in the summer with the AC running and around 69 in the winter with the Heat running. In my opinion 69 room temp is borderline for a corn snake. It may be ok once in a while, but I'm not sure I wan that every day.

So I have opted for 2 heat pads. I have one on the "Hot Side" and it pretty much stays 84 to 88. I have a 2nd heat pad on the "Cool Side" and it runs 72 to 75. They do fluctuate slightly because of the nature of thermostats and rheostats and the constant changing of the weather. You'll find it almost impossible to nail down and exact temp and keep it there, but you can get close.

As far as lighting - I have a light on a timer to simulate day and night. I give the snake 12 hours day and 12 hours night so he stays properly regulated, but it is "Not" a heat lamp. The lamp adds no additional heat to the cage.

 

[daddio207]

If you have a way to accurately weigh him in grams then go ahead and do it. No more harm will come of it.

 

[toonytrolly]

If you have a way to accurately weigh him in grams then go ahead and do it. No more harm will come of it.

I just weighed him - he's about 228 grams.

 

[toonytrolly]

I'm in no way an expert on snake behavior, I'm more familiar with lizards - but this is him immediately after I put him back in his tank from weighing him. He's now casually sniffing along the edge of the tank, and he comes out usually at least once or twice a day to sniff around and drink - and he doesn't seem to take much notice to me sitting at the tank anymore. I assumed he was less stressed - he seemed to me like he was, but I want to make sure I'm not overlooking something here. I know stress is one major reason for regurge - but he seems pretty normal to me. This is the second time I've ever handled him since before I put him in his tank. He's in a 20gal long with a locking lid, if it's important at all..

 

[Karl_Mcknight]

he's a big boy! He's capable of eating mice in the 25 gram arena.

 

[daddio207]

I just weighed him - he's about 228 grams.

Really ! Wow LOL
If that's accurate then I can't imagine he's around a year old.
The good news is at that size he can recover from a regurge quickly. Definitely wasn't the size of the mouse.

 

[toonytrolly]

he's a big boy! He's capable of eating mice in the 25 gram arena.

Really ! Wow LOL
If that's accurate then I can't imagine he's around a year old.
The good news is at that size he can recover from a regurge quickly. Definitely wasn't the size of the mouse.

I kinda guessed at his age - I never asked, and assumed based on his size, so I'm really not sure how old he is... I have a kitchen scale that's only off by a few grams, put him in a big container and then subtracted the weight of the container once he was out of it. I had no idea he was that heavy!! As I understood it, I was supposed to feed him a smaller item because he regurged - regardless of his size, should I try a hopper again or go smaller since that's the last thing I fed him?

 

[Karl_Mcknight]

I'd give him a few days from the regurg, and when you get ready to feed again give him a mouse one size smaller than he usually eats. He's capable of 25 gram mice easily, so perhaps see if you can find one around 18 to 20 grams. Just make sure it's not spoiled, improperly frozen or thawed, and slightly warm to the touch when you present it.