Ricky87
New member
:eek1::sidestep:
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That will never happen in America
- Thread starter wade
- Start date
Michael823
New member
I'm empowering those down trotted emoticons by saying emot-I-can!
tsst
Deuce is watching!
Thought Nova might like this. :shrugs::roflmao:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw&feature=channel
Did she actually say 3 years to get a family doctor?!?!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw&feature=channel
Did she actually say 3 years to get a family doctor?!?!
danielle
New member
You sure do its almost like christmas when your around:santa:
Nova_C
New member
I only saw the first few minutes, but I gather their adventures with Canadian health care didn't go well. I've never said the Canadian system was very good - it's about the worst implementation of UHC in the world right now. Places like Germany and Switzerland are doing a much, much better job of it.
But I'd still rather have the Canadian system over the American.
tsst
Deuce is watching!
Some highlights for you.
- official Canadian employees (yes multiple) telling patients to use private clinics
- official Canadian employee stating you can't get a blood test without being a patient of a family doctor (see next bullet)
- official Canadian employee stating wait time to get a family doctor is 3 YEARS
- official Canadian employee stating there are no days or nights where the wait is short
- a guy waiting 9 hrs for penicillin
- official Canadian employee saying a doctor visit in private clinic was $900
- a guy stepped on a rusty nail and it took him 4 days to get a tetanus shot
- a patients relative talking of how her relative had a leg circulatory issue known to be operable but because of waiting list (over a year) she not only lost the initial leg to amputation but both (yep she got free health care but I doubt it was what she wanted) they also eluded that getting a wheelchair may not only be difficult but not free
- a single person in Quebec pays nearly 60% of their income in taxes, wow. the average Californian pays about 31% (California is high state tax for the USA) even so thats still about a third of your income. if I am paying another third of my income for UHC and got the service that is in the video it would be revolution time.
- and maybe the best highlight was that Claude Castogay (spelling?) who headed the commission that created the Canadian system openly declares it a crisis and wants the gov monopoly eliminated
I know nothing about Switzerland but I dated a German girl for six months (knew her for over a year). She had health issues. In that time she spent most of it going from one waiting list to another. Some days she seemed fine other days she was near bedridden with pain. I know this is but one example and may be the worst in the history of their system but it did not sound too great to me and she very often complained about it. :shrugs:
Cornsnake124
Country boy gone wild
Yeah, that pretty much sums it up..
I am aware that this is very off topic, but I stumbled apon it today and i just thought it was funny!
nova, when are you going to declare yourself king of threads and bring out a proclamation that across the land we must all wait a week for care for minor and basic injuries?
Totally a joke, by the way.
Nova_C
New member
Something I thought of while reading your response, tsst:
Health care is administrated by the provinces. Not every province is the same. So painting all of Canada with that video is like me saying all of America is fascist because of Arizona.
The Quebec supreme court ruled a few years ago that since the government of Quebec was failing it's people in providing timely care that it was a violation of the charter to not allow private insurance. So Quebec is the only province in Canada with private insurance. Is that video recent? If so, why hasn't the free market started to improve health care? If not, then do we know what effect that the free market has had in Quebec with regards to health care?
According to Statistics Canada, Quebec is also well below the national average for people who have a regular medical doctor:
Only the territories Nunavut and NWT fared worse. Something like 85% of the population has a regular medical doctor, which isn't bad. However, the question is, would this be better if there was no governmental health care?
(I can't find statistics from the CDC regarding how many Americans have a regular doctor, but this is what I did find)
Almost 20% of Americans have insufficient access to health care; That is, that they needed care and couldn't afford it.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/07newsreleases/hus07.htm
I think this is important because that means that, in Canada, you have a better likelihood of finding a family doctor than you do of getting decent coverage in the US. That suggests that, as a percentage, more Canadians have a family doctor than do Americans. Or, at least, a doctor that will see them.
I'm not really willing to find the state with the worst health care and take a snapshot of it since that wouldn't really show what health care in the US is really like.
Kinda like how taking one persons experience in Canada's worst province for health care doesn't really give you a good idea as to how Canada's health care is overall.
Also, something interesting came up on another forum that I belong to: Canada's doctor shortage is more a problem with education than it is with health coverage. Not enough doctors are being educated because not enough classes are available. The 'brain drain' to the US isn't the culprit. It wouldn't matter if private insurance took over - there still wouldn't be enough doctors. I don't have much evidence of this since I'm still researching it, but it's an interesting proposal.
Oh, and there are plenty of private schools in Canada, so the free market isn't fixing that problem either.
There is another thread on this board talking about these kinds of responses. I generally research my points, present evidence and respond to people who do the same. Tsst showed evidence of Canada's system. I'm showing evidence how Tsst's evidence is incomplete and misleading. This is the essence of debate. If you would rather these threads only allow viewpoints which mesh with your own, why don't you say so?
Health care is administrated by the provinces. Not every province is the same. So painting all of Canada with that video is like me saying all of America is fascist because of Arizona.
The Quebec supreme court ruled a few years ago that since the government of Quebec was failing it's people in providing timely care that it was a violation of the charter to not allow private insurance. So Quebec is the only province in Canada with private insurance. Is that video recent? If so, why hasn't the free market started to improve health care? If not, then do we know what effect that the free market has had in Quebec with regards to health care?
According to Statistics Canada, Quebec is also well below the national average for people who have a regular medical doctor:
Only the territories Nunavut and NWT fared worse. Something like 85% of the population has a regular medical doctor, which isn't bad. However, the question is, would this be better if there was no governmental health care?
(I can't find statistics from the CDC regarding how many Americans have a regular doctor, but this is what I did find)
Almost 20% of Americans have insufficient access to health care; That is, that they needed care and couldn't afford it.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/07newsreleases/hus07.htm
I think this is important because that means that, in Canada, you have a better likelihood of finding a family doctor than you do of getting decent coverage in the US. That suggests that, as a percentage, more Canadians have a family doctor than do Americans. Or, at least, a doctor that will see them.
I'm not really willing to find the state with the worst health care and take a snapshot of it since that wouldn't really show what health care in the US is really like.
Kinda like how taking one persons experience in Canada's worst province for health care doesn't really give you a good idea as to how Canada's health care is overall.
Also, something interesting came up on another forum that I belong to: Canada's doctor shortage is more a problem with education than it is with health coverage. Not enough doctors are being educated because not enough classes are available. The 'brain drain' to the US isn't the culprit. It wouldn't matter if private insurance took over - there still wouldn't be enough doctors. I don't have much evidence of this since I'm still researching it, but it's an interesting proposal.
Oh, and there are plenty of private schools in Canada, so the free market isn't fixing that problem either.
cornsnake124 said:
There is another thread on this board talking about these kinds of responses. I generally research my points, present evidence and respond to people who do the same. Tsst showed evidence of Canada's system. I'm showing evidence how Tsst's evidence is incomplete and misleading. This is the essence of debate. If you would rather these threads only allow viewpoints which mesh with your own, why don't you say so?
Nova_C
New member
That's not exactly true. The federal taxes in Canada are as follows:
* 15% on the first $40,726 of taxable income, +
* 22% on the next $40,726 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income between $40,726 and $81,452), +
* 26% on the next $44,812 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income between $81,452 and $126,264), +
* 29% of taxable income over $126,264.
The Province of Quebec tax rates are as follows:
0 - $38,385: 16%
$38,385 - $76,770: 20%
>$76,770: 24%
Remember, that's progressive taxation, so you only get charged the higher percentages for the portion that fits. I can't remember the exact point that taxes aren't charged to, but if I remember my last tax filing correctly, it's around $13,000.
Average yearly salary in Quebec: $36,251
(Souce: http://www.immigration-quebec.gouv....loyment/economic-portrait/average-salary.html)
So that means that the government is only taxing about $23,000 of that salary. That salary also doesn't go past the first bracket of either federal or provincial taxes. So the total tax rate for the average Quebecois is 31%. That means the average Quebecois pays $7130 in yearly taxes. That means the average Quebecois pays 19.6% of their income in taxes.
I know I pay less since Alberta is at 10% provincial taxes with no brackets. As a single person making...enough to put me in the second federal bracket, I pay about 16% of my income in total deductions. That includes federal tax, provincial tax, federal pension, EI, etc.
tsst
Deuce is watching!
This is about as laughable a statement as you have ever made. The same person that felt empowered to paint every law enforcement officer with one broad stroke brush is lecturing me on not fairly judging more individualistic. :roflmao:
Did that not happen because the citizens sued? Not because the gov felt bad? And didn't yet another province just do the same?
Not sure but the tax quotes were from 2007. It's not a free market, that is a daft question. Give the citizens an opt out where they do NOT have to pay the gov taxes that go to health care and then the market starts correcting. And it won't happen overnight either because the gov is so entrenched. If they are still required to pay for the gov system (thru taxes) while additionally paying for private insurance and have far less facilities because they just don't exist who would do that?
No the question was why does it take 3 years to get a doctor in a system where everyone gets equal care? If one person gets a doctor all get doctors right?According to Statistics Canada, Quebec is also well below the national average for people who have a regular medical doctor:
Only the territories Nunavut and NWT fared worse. Something like 85% of the population has a regular medical doctor, which isn't bad. However, the question is, would this be better if there was no governmental health care?
Nice strawman spin. Comparing available care in a system where EVERYONE is suppose to get equal care to availability of insurance. The US numbers include millions of illegals that are uninsured and many younger folks that play the odds and opt out of insurance plans. The interesting thing in your post is that the numbers in Canada are suppose to be in a country where EVERYONE gets EQUAL FREE care?!?! The number should be 0% right?
That didn't stop you when it came to police 'one bad cop all bad cops'. :shrugs:
Yep in a socialist system why would everyone not want to spend years and years in school to work for a gov system? (slight sarcasm) Plenty of schools but not enough doctors? No 'brain drain' to the USA? Doesn't add up! They should have doctors everywhere in an equal free system run by the gov! :shrugs:
The figures I posted were from the video for a single parent household. US figures from IRS data. Canada figures were from the Interuniversity Centre on Risk, Economic Policies and Employment. Both were figures from 2007.
Nova_C
New member
You're right. I've been made to retract that statement and I've since amended it.
Yeah, a man sued the government of Quebec for violating his rights since the government was not allowing a private option.
Also, just because the government pays for health care does not mean that private insurance is not in a free market. There are plenty of things the government doesn't pay for, which is where Blue Cross makes $Alberta in Canada, and if the government is so bad at providing health care, than a private insurance company should have no problem competing. Everyone pays for a certain level of care. That care is government run. If you want more than that, than you go private. This does not strike me as an unreasonable position for a capitalist market.
Assuming availability. According to your founding fathers all men are created equal, but the US has quite a history of not treating people equal. I guess you should toss that whole sentiment out since the nation isn't living up to it. Honestly, this is a pretty unreasonable criticism. True equality, either in rights or in service, is a noble goal, but is nearly impossible to attain. We can only work towards getting as close to equal as we can.
I guess this requires clarification: Are you simply criticizing the Canadian system, or are you saying that the American system is currently better? How I respond to this depends on that.
No, there aren't plenty of schools, that's the problem. Lots of people want to be doctors, but there aren't enough classes. Private schools aren't making up the shortfall. Like I said, this is something being discussed on another forum and I haven't got data to back it up, but it's pretty disingenuous to say that someone would give up their career plans just because private insurance doesn't exist in Canada.
A single parent household should be paying even less. The numbers I got were from the Quebec provincial government and the Canadian federal government. I'm trying to find the source that video claims and can't even come up with a website. The closest I can come are links to a bunch of research papers that are broken links. If I can't even read the results of the study, then I guess I can't really offer an opinion on the findings.
I still don't see how you can claim nearly 60% income tax for a single parent home when the highest income bracket still only totals 53% on the portion in that bracket. Someone would have to be making several hundred thousand dollars a year to see taxes like that.
tsst
Deuce is watching!
The private insurance is not competing in Canada it is in addition to forced gov system. When poorer citizens are forced through taxes to pay for a gov system most probably can't afford the extra. And those that can afford it are using it over the gov system that they still are forced to pay for, go figure. Citizens are not given the choice where their money is spent, that would be competition. Mandated gov system is not capitalistic its socialistic or communistic.
Availability?!?!? I thought it was supposed to be available to EVERYONE. That has been your argument for a gov system from the beginning, that everyone gets it. National equlity does exist. In fact we may have over overcompensated for past mistakes. I believe your criticism would be better directed at individuals. I would agree there are individuals that don't believe in equality. Besides comparing a right and a service paid for is not even apples to oranges, more like apples to tree branches.
Simple clarification. If we are comparing "healthcare" (ie hospitals, doctors, equipment, etc) systems the US is far superior. If we are comparing "insurance" (ie gov paid or private ins) systems neither is adequate.
In a capitalistic society if there was a huge demand (Lots of people want to be doctors) the supply (Private schools aren't making up the shortfall) would adjust. This doesn't add up. The seemingly obvious factor why someone would not want to spend years and years and tens of thousands of dollars to be a doctor in Canada is because the gov will then mandate what that doctor can earn.
I simply quoted the films stats and source. If 16% total tax is all a Canadian pays that's pretty good.
Austin M
New member
It seem's this has turned into an insurance system vs government system. As far as I'm concerned they are very simular in that people will "over use" both systems! Me and many of my family and friends have had what the industry would call "The Cadilac" of insurance pollocies. I'm talking about $100 deductable $200 max. out of pocket and $5 perscriptions for family. Under that insurance system it was abused! I have a co-worker that was getting fertility drugs for his wife that cost 10K a month for $5! He signed a release to let the Dr. use the left overs on patients that couldn't afford it. Although I bet they or their insurnace companies got charged something too. lol My sister-in-law just took her son to the ER last month for a sliver in his foot. She didn't feel like waiting for the Dr. office to open. Who pays for all the insurance nonscence? Other people IN that insurance plan/company. So if you hate well fare because you hate paying for someone else you should equally hate our insurance system because if your not using the system then your paying for someone else!
If you love our insurance system then you love status quo. I would guess that those who love status quo love it because they have insurance at little cost to themselves. The big question is do you pay for that issurance or does someone pay it for you? If a company/someone else is paying for your insurance then your arrgument for an insurance system holds as much weight as the arrgument for a socialized system because YOUR NOT paying either way. Not to mention insurance system lovers NEVER pay the "real" cost of their health care!
I rub elbows with a lot of people from a wide range of tax brackets, and I do not know of anyone who can afford America's health care without insurance. Take insurance out of the picture. Who can afford $130 a Dr. visit for 3-4 minutes,, 2k-3k an ER visit and how about all the arrogant parent's who think they can afford to have a kid because their insurance company payed for it, at 25k a pop. Or should I say the other people in your insurance plan payed for your baby, just like in socialism! Who in this country could afford to have kids if they had to pay the hospital bill themselves? Those on well fare or those with insurance, right?
What I'm getting at is our health care system is a BUBBLE, just like our housing bubble, but 100X worse. Our insurance companies and over all health care system is at the caboose of the train, and they are going to ride this train into the ground! Before they crash into the ground with everyone else they are going to jump ship and want a government system!
The crash has already started. Local hospitals are starting to loose money and lay off employees because SO MANY people have lost their insurance in this economic collapse. It's only a matter of time before they start looking for "Welfare" too.
What I think will be funny to see is when our insurance system executives change their tune about socialized medician and seeing the low level defenders change with them.
Before you ignore everything I say, let me state the I'm not for socialized medicine. I just recognize there is a huge flaw in our current system that needs corrected.
If you love our insurance system then you love status quo. I would guess that those who love status quo love it because they have insurance at little cost to themselves. The big question is do you pay for that issurance or does someone pay it for you? If a company/someone else is paying for your insurance then your arrgument for an insurance system holds as much weight as the arrgument for a socialized system because YOUR NOT paying either way. Not to mention insurance system lovers NEVER pay the "real" cost of their health care!
I rub elbows with a lot of people from a wide range of tax brackets, and I do not know of anyone who can afford America's health care without insurance. Take insurance out of the picture. Who can afford $130 a Dr. visit for 3-4 minutes,, 2k-3k an ER visit and how about all the arrogant parent's who think they can afford to have a kid because their insurance company payed for it, at 25k a pop. Or should I say the other people in your insurance plan payed for your baby, just like in socialism! Who in this country could afford to have kids if they had to pay the hospital bill themselves? Those on well fare or those with insurance, right?
What I'm getting at is our health care system is a BUBBLE, just like our housing bubble, but 100X worse. Our insurance companies and over all health care system is at the caboose of the train, and they are going to ride this train into the ground! Before they crash into the ground with everyone else they are going to jump ship and want a government system!
The crash has already started. Local hospitals are starting to loose money and lay off employees because SO MANY people have lost their insurance in this economic collapse. It's only a matter of time before they start looking for "Welfare" too.
What I think will be funny to see is when our insurance system executives change their tune about socialized medician and seeing the low level defenders change with them.
Before you ignore everything I say, let me state the I'm not for socialized medicine. I just recognize there is a huge flaw in our current system that needs corrected.
Nova_C
New member
Canada has progressive taxation - poor people pay very little in taxes and can have their health premiums waived (Assuming the province charges premiums). In Canada, wealthy people subsidize poor people by paying more in taxes. The whole point of the government option is for all the people who can't afford private health insurance. This argument is predicated on the notion that everyone pays the same, which is not so.
If you're claiming that there isn't institutionalized racism in the US than you are even more naive than me.
Okay, by what metric? The WHO rates Canada's overall health care performance well above the US.
According to this data:
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/People_with_Jobs_as_Physicians_%2F_Doctors/Salary
GPs in the US make, on average, $134,439 a year.
In Canada:
http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/People_with_Jobs_as_Physicians_%2f_Doctors/Salary
GPs average $115,920.
So US Doctors make, on average, $20,000 more a year.
However, Doctors in Canada pay as little as 1/10th as much for malpractice insurance: http://www.tampabay.com/news/article1021977.ece
So depending on the doctor, and on the specialization, a Doctor in Canada is likely to end up with just as much, if not more, take home pay than a Doctor in the US.
16% is all someone at the lower end of the income scale would pay. Like I said, Canada has progressive taxation so the amount of taxes someone pays is largely dependent on the amount of money they make. I highly doubt even the wealthiest Canadians pay more than 50%, though. And you'd have to be very wealthy indeed to get taxed like that.
tsst
Deuce is watching!
Communism even worse, no thanks!
Please reference a federal law or constitutional right that says a Black, Hispanic, Asian etc man or woman can't do something a Caucasian man can.
:headbang::headbang::headbang: Did you choose to totally ignore my clarification. The WHO ratings are based mostly on cost and pseudo availability. Are you truly trying to imply the Canadian gov healthcare (ie doctors, hospitals, equipment, etc - NOT cost and insured factoring in) is better? I bet the woman in the video, whose relative lost both legs to amputation for free, agrees with you (sarcasm). No I am not going to waste time trying to find a link for you. I am sure the folks at Johns Hopkins, the Mayo Clinic, UCLA Medical Center, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc are striving to be like hospitals in Canada. I am sure heads of state from around the globe come here for low cost and nearby convenience. I am sure the Cleveland clinic has treated people from 80 nations because they were in town to see downtown Cleveland. (extreme sarcasm). They come here because they get the best treatment. I don't need a metric to understand that.
This is confusing
, then why is there an issue with getting doctors? Let's recap - lots of people in Canada want to be doctors, not a capitalistic issue because there are private schools, doctors get paid wonderfully, doctors don't pay near as much in insurance. I wonder why doctors around the globe aren't flocking to Canada? And why aren't there more Canadians actually becoming doctors instead of just 'wanting' to be? So is 16% just income tax? Or is that figure including GST and QST etc? We are nearly as bad as Canada when it comes to some RoW taxing. (not a fan :nope
Nova_C
New member
I won't argue ideology with you, so okay.
I will if you reference a law saying people aren't supposed to get doctors in Canada.
It's not about the letter of the law, it's about implementation. Considering the state of the Black community in the US, I find it hard to believe that Americans think there isn't systemic racism in the US still.
Yes, if you're rich and powerful, the US is a great place for health care. If you're part of the financial elite, or ruling elite, the US is a great place for health care. If you're not part of the elite, then the US is not a great place for health care. At best it's satisfactory, but for a lot of people, there is no health care in the US.
This is confusing
I dunno, why don't you ask them instead outright assuming that the system doesn't work because of your ideological bias?
So is 16% just income tax? Or is that figure including GST and QST etc? We are nearly as bad as Canada when it comes to some RoW taxing. (not a fan :nope
No, that's just income tax. GST is another 5%, but not everything is taxed. Gas is taxed pretty heavily in Canada as well. The real factor is individual purchasing power, which isn't really all that different between the two nations.
Michael823
New member
Some Americans think, or better yet choose to ignore the fact that there is still systematic racism in the US. People's only argument against the overwhelming evidence of the state of minorities in the US would be genetic predisposition, which is obviously nonsensical.
This will only fall on deaf ears, or be preached to the choir. But I cannot refrain from agreeing wholeheartedly with Nova based on the recurring backlash statements like this usually generate, when it is a very important issue that I cannot ignore.