Sudden Death

I had a sudden death of a snake today, and I'm curious what others' opinions are and if a necropsy is something that I should look into.

To start, the snake, Icarus, is a bit less than four years old and a Palmetto. I was home for lunch and had passed by his viv several times and there were no visual issues. He was out, as usual when nearing a feeding day, and relatively active.

When I next passed by he was moving erratically, corkscrewing. Several times he turned upside down and hit his head against the side of his water dish. His mouth was open during this whole process and he was making exhaling sounds. At this point, there was also blood in his viv that was from his mouth.

Despite attempts on my end he eventually stopped breathing and passed. During which, infrequently his body would tense and air would be expelled. Though I'm unsure if he was still alive at this point or if it was after effects of the death.

A few things to add: This was extremely sudden, with no warnings. He does not have an RI, and has never mouth breathed or gasped for breath. He has consistently been the best feeder I've ever owned, and he has no signs of mites or ticks.

This one hit me pretty hard, maybe because I witnessed it, but I'd like to get opinions of what may have happened here and if it's possibly related to care. It seemed to have a lot of similarities to a seizure. I'll add photos of the snake that were taken not two days ago

Oh no, I'm so sorry to hear that. What were the temps in his enclosure and what were you using to heat it?

Hi - He was using an under cage mat and thermostat at approximately 85 degrees and cool side fluctuated between 73~76 degrees.

Okay, so likely not a heat related issue then. Overheating can look like neurological issues like that.

Is it possible he came into contact with any pesticides or strong chemicals?

That sucks! My condolences. Expensive/valuable morph he was.

Before you beat yourself up: How many Palmettos in the hobby are >4 years old? (Members reading this chime in here if you yourself do have one of that age.)

From Morph Market: The first visual [Palmetto] babies were hatched in 2012 [only 11 years ago]... Issues Like many leucistic morphs, some Palmetto corns hatch with enlarged eyes, known as bug eyes. Bug eyes do not seem to be detrimental to the snake, but it is recommended not to breed ones that have them. So far, evidence suggests that bug eyes only happen to males.
https://www.morphmarket.com/morphpedia/corn-snakes/palmetto/

No mention of neurological issues, which is what appears to have afflicted Icarus.

But, I'd still like to know how many 5 to 10 year old Palmettos are out there, and how many of them are as healthy as they were when they were only a few years of age. I'd be interested in revisiting that link in the future to see if Morph Market's notes in regards to Palmetto issues will be updated as more and more hobbyists find themselves in possession of older Palmettos.

Very doubtful, since his viv was located in a home office and not somewhere that would have chemical sprays/etc.

Asmodeus* said:

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The issue of genetics has been brought up a few times in one of the Discords I posted this same issue to. This was definitely a very violent death in an otherwise healthy, if not spoiled, snake. I personally have not seen mention of this in Palmettos, though I only circulate in keeper circles and not breeder ones.

Some of the things other people have mentioned are Pulmonary Embolism (what I deem most likely right now simply due to the inclusion of blood) and Genetic Tumor.

Back to your initial post... if a necropsy is something that I should look into... I would love to see results of such pls update us if you choose to pursue that option. Do NOT freeze him, the autopsy cannot be done if frozen. Keep him in the coldest part of the fridge between 32 to 40 degrees.

Do you have other snakes that were kept under similar parameters that continue to be in good health? Trying to eliminate variables here. Same food provided to all (frozen/thawed)?

I'm gonna look now for your Discord thread. Again sorry for the loss, I've had 7 seven snakes die in this last 45 years and each was during brumation which is relatively common and is Nature’s way of weeding out the unhealthy, but it still sucks. I can only imagine having to bear witness to what you just have.

Speaking of brumation, the link I posted above also says "Don Soderberg acquired the first Palmetto, a wild-caught male in 2008." Does anybody know the location/latitude? Brumation of northern localities is paramount to optimal health whether breeding or not.

Oh where is the thread about genetics and Pulmonary Embolism and Genetic Tumor?

I know of a breeder with a 7 year old palmetto (and even older het palmettos). I know that's only one example. If more people are experiencing early death or other issues (besides the known bug eye issue), it will come out eventually and the Morphpedia article will be updated accordingly.

Lo spero.

palmetto = South Carolina... needs to be brought down <42 degrees for >1 month
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_South_Carolina

Bear in mind that just about any sudden death syndrome that humans can have, so can animals. They get heart attacks, embolisms, strokes, organ failures, you name it. It is certainly disappointing, often devastating when you wonder if you did something wrong to cause it, but it happens nonetheless. There was probably nothing you could have foresee nor done to prevent it.

Just don't let it spoil your appreciation of the hobby. We all get bad days sometimes.

Rich Z said:

Bear in mind that just about any sudden death syndrome that humans can have, so can animals. They get heart attacks, embolisms, strokes, organ failures, you name it. It is certainly disappointing, often devastating when you wonder if you did something wrong to cause it, but it happens nonetheless. There was probably nothing you could have foresee nor done to prevent it.

Just don't let it spoil your appreciation of the hobby. We all get bad days sometimes.

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I agree. And on top of that, they're really good at hiding health issues.