Het caramel "influence"

I've been seeing more posts lately claiming new babies either have yellowed coloration due to het caramel or will gain it over time. This is not something I've seen to be consistent to any degree, and I think if it were then caramel would have already been reclassified as incomplete dominant to wild. There are a number of factors that can increase yellow coloration, including hybridization and the purported yellow jacket gene, and frankly I'm not convinced caramel is among them.

This male amel has no known caramel ancestors, but could be a super YJ. His sister had about half his yellowing as a hatchling, and he was blindingly bright. These photos don't do him justice. I don't believe he is creamsicle, since he was more red orange than most creamsicles as a baby.




If anyone has photos of het caramel animals with or without some extra bit of yellowing, please add them below. I'll be snapping a few shots of my two classic het caramel clutches to add in a little while. As far as I can tell, none of them look at all yellow.

Lol helps if I charge a battery. I only got clear shots of Eclair and Biscotti respectively. These are out of a caramel het lava motley female.




I expect them to look quite a lot like their sire, the male in the photo here: http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1689771&postcount=64

This amel motley is het for caramel. She's much more orange and yellow than her father. I don't know if that's the caramel influence however, or the motley influence.





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I suspect as Joe does, that it's more likely a yellowing gene that has been unknowingly selected for in caramel morphs, particularly butters and ambers, just as red factor or red coat may have been selected for in bloodreds. The brightest babies are frequently held back for future breeding.

Here's my sunkissed, another het caramel.



She's my escapee (gone 6 months) so her colors may not be as saturated as they could be due to malnutrition. The first picture is a recent picture and the second one is a picture from when I first got her.


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I'll toss up some of my photos from 2014 from pairing a tessera hey butter/Amber stripe x butter stripe later tonight.

I'll post later today. While playing softball last night, shortstop and i decided to try to merge into one being as i came charging in for a shallow popup in short left field. I dove at last minute, taking his knee to my right ribs, all the while somehow bruising the palm of my left hand. Spent last night taking an epsom salt bath and icing my hand. Thankfully neither of us were actually seriously injured, just pride and soreness. :awcrap:

Here are at least a few photos, posted as attachments. The other shots I have are too large in dimension for upload as attachments so I'd either need to resize or load to Flickr. I need to get to bed though...

FBSA = Flicker Butter Stripe Albino, of Flicker X Butter Stripe = Albino

Flicker is a tessera het albino, caramel, hypo, & stripe from South Mountain Reptile
Mrs. Butters, aka Chiquita is a butter stripe, ph hypo from John Finsterwald and was produced through a project between he and Don Soderberg if I recall.

The other 4 are FRAA (Flicker RAinier Albino) or FRAT (Flicker Rainier Albino Tessera).

Rainier is a reverse okeetee from SMR, with no known hets.

Here's a few months later and some brightening up.

The last is "Runt" from the year prior. She's got an overall lighter color to her and was from Flicker X Rainier.

Are these all from Flicker X Rainier? I saw the other outcross photos...any plans to test the yellower offspring for het caramel? I would strongly suspect that Flicker might be at least 1x yellow jacket. If any of the brighter offspring prove not het caramel, it could be at least a step in the right direction in dispelling the idea of het caramel influence. I certainly want to test this theory with my very bright yellow topaz, which being from Joe Pierce's collection, could indeed be one of his purported YJs. After all, masque was considered a het marker for bloodred for the longest time.

Dragonling said:

Are these all from Flicker X Rainier?

Click to expand...

Yup...

Dragonling said:

I saw the other outcross photos...any plans to test the yellower offspring for het caramel? I would strongly suspect that Flicker might be at least 1x yellow jacket. If any of the brighter offspring prove not het caramel, it could be at least a step in the right direction in dispelling the idea of het caramel influence. I certainly want to test this theory with my very bright yellow topaz, which being from Joe Pierce's collection, could indeed be one of his purported YJs. After all, masque was considered a het marker for bloodred for the longest time.

Click to expand...

The thought has strongly crossed my mind as over in that thread you can see the Flicker X Georgia holdbacks that appear to be showing the "het caramel" marker, particularly Harp. I have a male tessera from that same pairing, same clutch. Right now I'm more curious as to what's going on with Harp's lateral patterning; it's not tessellated. Her brother is similarly marked, but not as well as she. I'm thinking of pairing them together next season, but then at the same time I'm not completely certain I'd be able to prove anything regarding that patterning since they are both 50% possible hets for caramel, hypo, albino, and stripe - ignoring the caramel marker.

At the same time, I also have that what appears to be xanthic stripe. Recent discussions with Señor Roylance lends to possible suspicion of that animal having ultra lineage somewhere in it's family tree, and thus the problem of not buying direct - I only know what she's got going on phenotypically. Apparently non-ultras have been known to pop bright yellow like that, which was the first I'd heard of but I also don't have and have never worked with ultra.

I always thought my Motley/stripe tessera het snow was het caramel (never proven his 50% poss het) due to his yellow coloration. His babies all develop significant yellow, even the snows. It's in the region of the carotenoid deposition but just much more pronounced. Unfortunately I've never gotten an amel from him which could be enlightening from the buf standpoint.

I am now wondering if he's not buf, super buf, or yellow jacket. Though those may be the same thing.

Here is the original tessera male and a daughter that I think could also carry what he carries. I would like to test both for caramel at some point.

Do you have photos of his offspring as fresh hatchlings? Either before or after the first shed. They typically start off looking very much like anery, and there are only very subtle differences between anery and anery buf hatchlings.

The daughter's belly reminds me a lot of my buf's checkers, what little she has anyway. Every time I want to photograph her she's either in shed or just eaten...the latter in this case. So you get a pic of the former.



I see a lot of similarity between our tesseras, though some differences. It could just be because your female's borders are thinner. I would say Delta's eyes could be a little bit more yellow.

Similar checks for sure. My tessera is definitely more red than yours.

The pics I have of her as a young'n are kind of crap in terms of color but I'll post them anyway.

Here is Delta as a hatchling for comparison, though unfortunately not right out of egg. She had a surprising amount of red coloration, though lacking any significant amount of red in her background, and similar eyes to yours. Hmm.

(e) The faded head pattern seems significant. It's one way to determine anery from anery buf...interesting. I may have to find more photos of buf hatchlings. I'm still not sure buf and yellow jacket could be related though. I may have to compare Sunny to known orange corns.

She reminds me of a buckskin.

If both are yellow jacket or buf, which I'm pretty sure yours is, maybe yours is super and mine is a het form? If it is incomplete dominant =)

That snake is beautiful by the way.

Many suspect buf to have a super form, but it hasn't been tested to my knowledge, or if so the results were not yet conclusive. Many suspected yellow jackets or yellowish het caramels I've seen don't usually seem to fit the profile for buf. Then again, there seems to be huge variety among buf adults, just like every other single mutation.

And thanks! She was produced by SMR, one of the last buf clutches he bred I believe. He got very tired of trying to identify them, I think.

I need more bufs but I could see how that might get stressful