Upper Keys Question

Since I saw the pictures of the Upper Keys type corns on Rich's site I've been wondering about them. I did get a pair of Hypo Upper keys Bloodreds from him but I was thinking about breeding the male to a lavender for a project later on. My question is, if you take an upper keys to the lavender the offspring would be...normal looking babies (with hets), or would they technically be "Upper keys".

Upper keys is just a selectively bred normal right? Somewhat like Okeetees right? Does only one parent have to be "upper keys" to get the look, maybe not as strong but...do ya get what I mean? haha

(I wish I could have gotten HUKBRs!!!) I don't have an answer, except that they are what you'd call a locality. I wonder what an upper keys anery lav would look like!

corn/snake said:

Upper keys is just a selectively bred normal right? Somewhat like Okeetees right? Does only one parent have to be "upper keys" to get the look, maybe not as strong but...do ya get what I mean? haha

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I wouldn't say that they are similar to selectively bred normals like miamis or okeetees. in my opinion there are more differences than just the coloration and the belly pattern. They are thinner, their head is often more triangular, long story short - they have definatly visible differences in their shape compared to ordinary cornsnakes. kathy love has a good picture in her book where you can see the different form of their heads.



but yes, you can conserve their coloration and their missing belly pattern similar to the okeetees and miamis. Last year, I bred my Marathon locality rosacea male to a bloodred het amel female, there was a BIG variety between the hatchlings, some looked absolutly normal, others were (optical) pure upper keys! here are the hatchlings.






I hope it helps?!

corn/snake said:

My question is, if you take an upper keys to the lavender the offspring would be...normal looking babies (with hets), or would they technically be "Upper keys".

Upper keys is just a selectively bred normal right? Somewhat like Okeetees right? Does only one parent have to be "upper keys" to get the look, maybe not as strong but...do ya get what I mean? haha

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Keys Corns are not selectively bred morphs. They are a locality snake. Once (and, sometimes, still) known as Rosy Rats until they got added into the cornsnake species.

They do appear to have a strong influence, upon their offspring's phenotype, since they, often, tend to pass on certain traits (such as checkerless, or near checkerless, bellies,... affect upon coloration... etc.).

It seems that, if Upper Keys is bred into a line, people will label them with the the Upper Keys name (i.e. Upper Keys Blood, Hypo Upper Keys, etc.). However, if the Upper Keys blood is diluted enough (IOW there is very little Keys blood in later generations), ... I am not sure if they should be labeled, with the Upper Keys name, or not.

Once again, wouldn't it be cool if there was DNA testing for ratsnakes...

I wouldn't say that they are similar to selectively bred normals like miamis or okeetees. in my opinion there are more differences than just the coloration and the belly pattern. They are thinner, their head is often more triangular, long story short - they have definatly visible differences in their shape compared to ordinary cornsnakes.

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They sure seem to have a different personality from corns too IMHO.. Maybe a close cousin, but are they realy corns???


I have Upper Keys outcrosses flosting around here... Probably what I will refer to them for as long as I can do this..

TandJ said:

They sure seem to have a different personality from corns too IMHO.. Maybe a close cousin, but are they realy corns???

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I agree!! In my opinion, they are much more than a variety from the islands. I have upper key localities and regular mainland corns in my stock and there's a huge difference between them. I really wonder why they aren't a subspecies anymore, you don't have to be a scientist for seeing those differences :shrugs:

corn/snake said:

or would they technically be "Upper keys".

Upper keys is just a selectively bred normal right? Somewhat like Okeetees right? Does only one parent have to be "upper keys" to get the look, maybe not as strong but...do ya get what I mean? haha

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The short answer is "No". Upper (and lower) Key Corns are LOCALITY (like mentioned in above posts) animals that occur in the Florida Keys. Science used to consider them a different subspecies- today they are "just a corn." PURE Key Corns will have reduced (to 0%) black, reduced (to absent) belly checkering and usually a smaller/thinner size/build.

Your "normal" hets WILL look different and the Key Corn lineage will show some influence on pattern but you couldn't sell them as real/pure Key Corns. It should be an exciting combo and the future animals should be beautiful.

corn/snake said:

I did get a pair of Hypo Upper keys Bloodreds from him

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BTW: Forgot to mention. Although you bought those animals from Rich, they aren't technically TRUE Upper Key Corns. He has bred mainland corns into his lines to mix in those other genes. Since the babies are influenced by thier PARTIAL Florida Key's heritage, it's easier to list them as "Hypo Upper Key Bloodreds".

Don Soderberg (South Mountain Reptiles) has a line of Rosy Bloodreds that are LOCALITY animals. These corns actually turned out to be expressing the KASTANIE gene.

Hope that helps.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to StrangeCargo again.

Keys Corns

I agree with Tim dont know why they ever put them in with cornsnakes,there are alot of differences,I know they dont get nearly as big I think adults reach like 3 1/2 feet long as where I have had many female corns reach over 5 feet!
There also is a olive phase Key corn,which if selectively bred can we make pure green cornsnakes? Like to see a wild caught green cornsnake!!!...:grin01:

stephen said:

There also is a olive phase Key corn,which if selectively bred can we make pure green cornsnakes? Like to see a wild caught green cornsnake!!!...:grin01:

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Really Stephen? I've heard of olive Rosy Rats but I've never seen a pic. I've had a Ton of Rosy Rats (Boot Key, Big Pine Key, Marathon Key, No Name Key & Key Largo). That sounds amazing.

JimGERcream said:

I have upper key localities and regular mainland corns in my stock and there's a huge difference between them.

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I have Keys locality (middle Keys) and, yep, they are rather different from Corns ... even from my Corns that are the progeny of WC Corns.
I should take a photo of one of my Middle Keys, alongside a Miami (same age & from WC line), to show what a big difference there is... if I can ever get around to it.