2+ snakes in same cage?

[Ice9]

I think balanced arguement is a good thing. Some of the points made about why it isnt a good idea to house together are very valid. Ive also seen lots of corns housed together where there have been no problems. Perhaps , as has been said , you need to weigh up the options and make a decision for yourself. If its the wrong one , on your own head be it.

There is an element of risk in many things we do in life. Kids catch things from other kids , they beat each other up , bully each other causing stress. Does that mean I dont let them go out any more?

I know thats taking things to the extreme , but all Im trying to do is make a point. I also think that the point bluetattoo made was excellent. All of us keep snakes for "people" reasons , but we try and make life as pleasant for our snakes as possible too.

I think the best thing about this forum , is you can listen to how other people do things and what experiences theyve had , and then make a decision for yourself. If Id followed some of the advice I had when I first got my snakes they would have been dead by now (not this forum btw ).

 

[Mayte2]

Personally I would not keep snakes together, but many people do, and successfully so. We cannot say they are wrong for doing so, just that they do things differently. All we can do is point out the risks and dangers and allow people to make their own decisions based on that knowledge, their own assessment of the risks involved and their own experience. Blue

Thats exactly what I was trying to say. People can make up their own minds with facts that have been given in a constructive and helpful way. People do not want to be shouted down because they raise an issue which some others have differing opinions to.

As for the wide range of differing opinions ...

bmm .. I did go to your links .. as I said I am willing to take onboard any info on a subject where people have difficulty in accepting other peoples views. I quote directly from the two.

The 1st link (http://www.austinherpsociety.org/caresheet1.html) says this ...

"Male snakes will 'wrestle' in the presence of a female during breeding season. Otherwise, snakes do not fight, unless one is attempting to eat the other"

The 2nd link (http://www.exoticpetvet.net/reptile/socialize.html)
says this ...

"Adult males often will fight with each other, and may inflict mortal wounds upon each other"

This is what I mean by conflicting information. This is why I say to weigh up the pros and cons on each subject and make an informed decision based on your own experiences of your own snakes. Personally, we do not have females so breeding conflicts are unlikely ... we will also be feeding them separately, so will not have fights based on aromas and therefore will know which one has regurged.

Vivs are not natural no matter what we do to make them be natural. I don`t know of any snake in the wild that lives in a glass house with readily available water and clean bedding every time it poos. Maybe is the height of cleanliness that we inflict on them that have brought many diseases to the fore? Who knows?

Maybe one day we will all agree on everything and all live in perfect harmony.

Boy .. wouldn`t that be boring


Take care all

Mayte2

 

[bmm]

"we will also be feeding them separately, so will not have fights based on aromas and therefore will know which one has regurged. "

You will? How so? If you even fed on seperate dates you STILL won't be able to tell. Why? Because regurgatation can look days old, brand new, etc. You won't know. That's a fact.

You people keep saying "Oh make your own choice" and oh "Its not natural to be in vivs in the first place" This is a TOTALLY differnet issue! You are talking about forcing a snake who lives solitary in the wild to live in close qaurters with another snake. But um o.k.

Another issue no one seems to bring up is constant low levels of stress in ALL captive animals can lead to disease, short lifespan and other SERIOUS issues. A snake can still be feeding but be under constant stress because "competition" is being forced to live in his enclosure.

I am done with this thread. Considering there is still NO reason that is BENEFICIAL to the snakes to house them together I will never put my snakes at risk like that.

bmm

 

[bluetattoo]

Bmm.....Please climb down off your cross.........I actually agree with you in my choice of not housing snakes together.......But it IS my choice, as it is yours, and other people are entitled to make their own choices too...Whatever you do you are taking a snake out of its natural environment and putting it into something alien. I would rather see two corns together in a huge naturalistic viv overlooked by someone who knows and cares for their animals than see 20 corns crammed into boxes in a rack by someone who aint got a clue! I luv the little critters and will do what I think is best for them, and you should allow other people to do so too! Your attitude to your snakes is always commendable - I just wish I could say the same about your attitude to other peeps!

Blue

 

[Taceas]

Re:

Discussions are good, it gets all of the information out there and lets people decide for themselves the issue at hand. Thats what we're here for..to discuss corn snaking as a hobby. When two camps of people disagree on something there is going to be friction, no doubt. "Cheap" and "ignorant" are not fightin words last time I checked, mere vessels of honesty.

Bmm is one individual that takes getting used to...I'll admit. When I first came here my first impression was.."Informative, but terribly rude." And now..I see why she's like that in a lot of posts. I'm starting to digress towards the same mannerisms in my posts as well, albeit unintentionally.

My first posting in this thread was, I'll admit..overboard. But, if you look around and you take note of all of the posts that are related in content matter to this thread you might see where I'm coming from.

I agree unequivocally with Bmm on this. There is not one solid reason that is beneficial for the snakes to house together, not one. And you can't back up your point of view with saying that they're already in an un-natural environment to begin with. Why? Because 98% of the corn snakes in this hobby are captive bred, they're bred under captive conditions, and that's all they've ever known. Most of the snakes bred today wouldn't last more than a month in the wild. They aren't wild animals in the sense of a wild caught corn snake from South Carolina being forced into an aquarium. That being said, they still have the same behaviours and instincts as their wild brethren..one of which being a solitary lifestyle. You don't have to teach a corn snake how to constrict to kill its food, it does that naturally. Same as with being alone. If you have two snakes in an enclosure and provide the necessary requirements and numbers of hides, they're not going to sleep in the same hide. They don't seek out friends or company to sleep with.

As you go down the ladder of species, the mental faculties of vertbrates starts to change to a more primitive nature. You don't see frogs or snakes worrying about if that last morsel will make them fat or not. They can't like or love anything. They just do what they do out of instincts will.

Stress is a big unknown in reptiles. It doesn't illicit the same thing we see that stress does in humans or cats or dogs. It doesn't cause a snake to have high blood pressure or overeat. Instead it weakens the immune system to the point that even natural and normal levels of flora and fauna are too much to handle and you end up with regurgitations, diarrhea, or other maladies.

I'm not trying to brainwash anyone into keeping their snakes separately. My intention is to merely educate the uneducated. And when the uneducated don't do their homework it makes the teacher irritable.

I lurked on this forum for nearly a month before I ever posted. I read through all of the posts, learned who people were and how they thought..I didn't just pop on here and randomly start asking questions. Why? Because I had already researched the basics way before I ever got my first corn snake. I read all the books I could get my hands on, I read all of the information on websites, and I found this forum which has been an invaluable tool for learning further. I'm not saying asking questions is wrong, quite the contrary..what annoys me is people being lazy and not utilizing the tools in front of them beforehand.

And I agree with Bmm, people who house corn snakes together are lazy, pure and simple. No sugar coating the truth or trying to soften it up.

No I'm not heated or mad, I'm quite calm and rational as I sit here and type this out. I just cannot think of one good reason for putting snakes together other than for aforementioned breeding purposes or photo shoots, not one, other than the laziness factor.

We're here to keep our snakes as "happy and healthy" as possible, why jeopardize that? I don't intentionally place my breeder dwarf hamsters and breeder mice together because I think they're cute together, and they have the same purpose in life, and they eat the same food, and have the same type of water bottle, and they have the same type of bedding. Why? Because if they didn't outright kill and eat each other, they'd stress themselves to death. Then I'd be out a load of fresh pinkies now wouldn't I?

If money was the issue, the extra snake shouldn't have been bought in the first place. A snake costs 3-4 times the cost of an inexpensive enclosure, doesn't make sense to me. Lets spend $60 on a snake and then not get it its own enclosure that would have cost a mere $20 for everything required. If lack of space was the issue, again, the second snake shouldn't have been purchased. And on and on and on. Just imagine trying to pay for a vet bill because you not only have the new snake sick, but the established one as well.

If you have a house sized enclosure, by all means go ahead and keep a 1:2 colony of corns together. But in the environments that we give them they are not nearly so spacious. Even a 55 gallon tank isn't large enough for 2 corns to be at peace in.

Anyway, there's all my wares out on the table. I hope everyone enjoys reading my novel-length post. But thats how I truly feel on the subject.

 

[bmm]

"you should allow other people to do so too!"

Punishing an animal because humans feel everything about their lives is "up to each person" is wrong.

If something is obvious wrong to do, and has NO reason to be done but a person still does it to an animal, that is not right. Now if there were even ONE reason that benefits the snakes, and I still had the position I do, THEN it would be "oh its each persons choice" But as it is now people who house corns together are choosing to go AGAINST the snakes natural behavours. NOT good snake keeping in my eyes. Terrible in fact.

Taceas post was far more well written than mine and I am sorry some of you feel I am "heated" but thats not "heated" thats me showing you how pointless it is to house together, and you still insisting you will. Not my problem. Actually not even your problem, its the snakes who have no choice. Which is sad.

bmm

 

[bluetattoo]

Hey Taceas.....Its a pleasure to read your post! The voice of reason is always greatly appreciated. I am gonna point out again that I am not an advocate of keeping snakes together, and do not particularly want to come across as a champion of that cause. I do however feel that the matter deserves proper discussion, not just instant dismissal by self proclaimed gurus.
I agree with your point that 98% of corns in this hobby are captive bred .Many of them are genetically bred also. However, your point does seem to indicate that you think that captive bred corns can and do adapt to being kept in captivity. If they can and do adapt, why do they only do so within the limits that you apply? "I can adapt to living with humans but I can't adapt to living with my kith and kin" doesn't exactly seem that logical!
Secondly, you would give the go ahead to keeping two snakes in a "house sized enclosure". So why has the idea of space and territory never been brought into this discussion before? What is the space and territory you would recommend for a corn?
Thirdly, on the cheapness front, maybe some people don't mind having to pay the extra few bucks to pay for all their snakes to be checked out if one gets ill. Maybe it costs a bit more than keeping them in individual boxes, but hey, who's counting?! And on the subject of disease, it's just as likely that a disease can be spread amongst a rack or a room as it is for two snakes housed together if the symptoms are not spotted early enough by the keeper.
I have learnt from bitter experience that housing two corns together did not work for me. But if I am going to be able to convince others of the error of their ways., then I need the matter to be fully discussed, and not just dismissed out of hand.

Blue

 

[bmm]

I'd like to clear up I realize Bluetattto does not house together and any mentoins of people insisting they will house together was referring to the other people in this thread. thanks.

bmm

 

[Taceas]

Good points, Blue. I like rational, well thought out discussions myself.

I think corns adapt to only what is within their small world that we provide them. Adaption on a larger scale would be coined as evolution, would it not? They adapt to humans as probably merely an inconvenience in their day to day lives. They endure being handled and disturbed because they plainly see that humans are not another snake. Kind of like my cats, they're fine when other people come to visit. But the moment that I cat-sit my parents cat for the weekend, hold on to your seat..they are annoyed and make it plainly obvious. Back to snakes now, they don't adapt easily to something else in close proxitimity for extended periods of time, like a cage mate. I would tend to agree, I don't want to share my smaller than natural living space with someone else crawling all over me. Animals see competition, they know they have no competition with us...but with a cagemate there 24/7, its bound to lead to problems.

Yeah, I think in a very large naturalistic display, such as those you see at a zoo, I think a couple of cornsnakes would be rather comfortable. They'd have enough room to themselves to stake out their own territory, and still be comfortable. I may be completely wrong on that assumption, however. I honestly have no clue why its never been brought up, but I think its a valid point. In a small enclosure, like the ones in people's homes...its small enough that the whole enclosure is the snakes' territory, or lets say "personal bubble". The more snakes in there, the less "bubble" room for each snake. So to me, it's rather obvious why they'd be stressed.

As for cheapness, I don't take all my snakes to the vet. Only my adults before I breed them or others as the problems arise. I'd be in even deeper debt if I took them all to the vet at regular intervals. =P But regardless its expensive as heck. I was mostly implying at those people who insist on having the most expensive and elaborate vivariums..instead of practical and usefull plastic tubs.

I agree, disease in reptiles can be vicious..especially if not caught early on. And any snake can be sick, not just the newcomers. But more often than not it's the newcomers who introduce something that was normal in their old environment to snakes who've not yet been exposed to it. Kind of like viruses in humans. I'm sure people in England are more adapted to certain viruses than we are here in Midwestern America. Because you're a lot more densely populated than here, where my closest neighbor is a half mile away. In my personal experience it doesn't have to be an exotic bug to be a problem. Sometimes the common bacteria and et cetera are just as problematic. Like in a breeder rodent colony. One colony at another location is adapted to be pathogens there, and would probably not do so good in my colony which is adapted to something else. Funny how that works.

Hope that makes sense. Had to stop typing in mid-post due to a phone call, so had to sit and think about what it was I was trying to say again after an hour long lapse. =P

 

[Mayte2]

Thanks to everyone for their input into this thread.

In the beginning my main point was that I had noticed on several different threads that if people have differing opinions to the so called experts, they get shouted down and made to look stupid. I didn`t want this to break out into a house together/house separate thread. I used that as an example where some people`s attitudes towards others was, as I saw it, unacceptable.

There are people who do things I disagree with but I don`t think I have ever slated someone for it.

I too, don`t post very often as I research most of my queries. I read books and care sheets, I surf the web and look at forums. I look at pros and cons and make my own mind up. (I am an adult after all).

Thanks again to everyone especially bluetattoo who has remained calm and dignified throughout. Bluetattoo`s responses have given me hope that maybe there are some people who can give a reasoned answer or make their point without yelling and calling me (and others) all sorts of names just because we don`t do things their way.

Thanks again all

Mayte2

 

[Adam8]

Sry for mentioning "heated" bmm. I haven't ever and definately won't house corns together after reading this thread. I just didn't know cause I see pet shops do it all the time. Thx again.

Adam

 

[bluetattoo]

Hope I'm not digging myself into a hole here, and again, in case it gets taken out of context, I do not advocate keeping corns together as a general rule. However this thread has thrown up a couple of interesting points that I'd like to pursue in the interests of furthering my own knowledge. These are to do with the question of territory and solitude in the wild.
I am presuming that corns are not territorial in the way that say a tiger, another solitary animal is in as much as you do not get a dominant male staking out his claim on a large area, and all the females within it (although I do appreciate that males will show aggression towards each other if competing for a breeding female). Therefore, what dictates a snakes territory and how big is that area?
If the answer to that is to do with competition for prey, then would you not find more snakes living in closer proximity around areas of a reliable food source. WE are obviously a reliable food source, therefore the element of competition for prey disappears. Consequently, if the argument for not housing together comes down to snakes being naturally solitary creatures, then the question comes down to how much space a snake needs to itself, and therefore if you are able to provide this individual space, would it still be wrong to house together?
Please feel free to shoot me down in flames on this one folks as I really am sailing in uncharted territory here and may be talking out of my backside, so would appreciate any input.

Blue

 

[bmm]

No one can say exactly how much space a corn needs, especially not in terms of say "feet by feet" because it would be impossible to say which individual has which hiding spot in which place in relation to another snake of the same species.

Even if each cornsnake needed 3 feet by 10 feet as its own areain captivity, a 6 by 20 foot enclosure is still not the same thing as open area becuse the snakes have NO idea where their ten feet ends. To them, they are in a space they cannot leave (wether they understand that point or not) and another snake is also sharing that space. It's the same reason you cannot house many iguanas together. You just cannot provide the open area that would make them feel like they have their own little area inside this larger area. (i,e. a huge cage) There is still another iguana there, and they will in some cases fight, badly.

Even if one day its determined that corns need a specific amount of space, captive conditions have nothing to do with this because while each corn may need 5 by 5, that 5 by 5 square is A LOT more private in the wild. Not to mention if you did do a cage thats say 10 by 10 thinking you have given each snake its own area, in the wild a corn who has another "invade" his space might just leave the area because it stressed him out. In a cage in our home, even in a ten by ten you have two animals who YOU are making the choice for, nether can just leave. That's why it wouldn't matter how much each needs in captivity because neither one can just leave. They wouldn't just stay behind their side of the 5 by 5.

I think an even better discussion would be people who DO house together coming up with a reason that benefits the snakes. That might get THEM somewhere if it was even possible to find a beneficial reason.

bmm

 

[Mayte2]

Reasons to keep together?? Wouldn`t it be lovely to see this when you look in on them one morning .... (this is a light hearted joke btw )

 

[Lynn Courtney]

Having maintained as many as three corn snakes in the same vivarium without problems, behavioral or otherwise, I am surprised at the strength of conviction expressed about how deleterious this practice is to corn snakes. It would be nice to have some more concrete data on the natural history of this species in this forum. I hear a lot of talk about stress on snakes housed together yet I have not read anywhere that this species is fiercely territorial. Many sanke species cluster together for a variety of reasons e.g. Rattle snakes, Garter snakes and even Water Moccasins.

Clearly, cannabilism occurs but when and why, and what constitutes stress for a primitive species like a snake? How would such stress be manifested in their behavior in order to draw the conclusion that it was indeed present?

My two cornsnakes appear to follow eachother around the vivarium seemingly prefering to be together and not, it would seem, just because they are thermoregulating.

Any informed comments would be most welcome.

 

[bmm]

A species does not have to be territorial to be non-social and solitary.

Corns may not stake out a claim of area in the wild, in fact I am almost sure they do not. But this doesn't change the fact they prefer to be on their own and are solitary in nature like most snakes. Snakes on a whole never had to evolve things like social behaviours, or emotional attachments or other attachments to other members of their species aside from those to do with breeding. All they need and have needed to do for thousands of years is eat, thermoregulate, breed. Making friends or living with other snakes has nothing in it for them in the wild or captivity. They live by instinct, not personal preferance. That is a fact. A snake fact anyway.

With any captive animal aside from those who are social and need group living, you should house them in the way with the least risk possible. If there are a half dozen or more risks involved with housing together, and no risks envolved with housing seperate, as humans I feel its our responsibility to provide the lowest risk captive enviroment possible. To put an animal at risk, even though for years it may have been fine with the circumstances, is making a choice for the snake that the snake, not you, will have to suffer the consequences for. We have been giving a privledge to own these creatures, not decide what we think is best. We have a responsibility to house them in safe, clean conditions that mimic their nature lives as closely as possible. This means thermoregulation in the cage, feeding on proper scheduals in a safe manner, and breeding/housing using only the safest lowest risk methods IMHO.

"Clearly, cannabilism occurs but when and why, and what constitutes stress for a primitive species like a snake? How would such stress be manifested in their behavior in order to draw the conclusion that it was indeed present?"

Stress can be seen easily by a snake refusing food, losing weight, etc. But this is visible stress. A feeding snake can still have low levels of stress the keeper will not see and it can be a constant for years upon years. This has not been researched in snakes very much that I know of, but low levels of stress in other captive animals has and can cause major long term problems. Cannabilism doesn't have to have a reason to occur. The snake can simply decide an opportunity has shown itself for a meal. With corns it happens rarely if ever in adults though. I don't normally use this as a reason not to house together myself. But for hatchlings the risk is real, and every season we see at least a couple cannabilisim photos right here on the board.

"My two cornsnakes appear to follow eachother around the vivarium seemingly prefering to be together and not, it would seem, just because they are thermoregulating."

See no offense but you have no idea why they are "following" each other. It could just be them pacing back and forth, it very well could be thermoregulation, it could be nothing. But to say out of the blue it could be because they like each other doesnt add up and snakes are not capable of social preferance. Meaning a snake cannot make friends, they simply do not have the functions required to do this, nor do they have a reason. If you could prove your snakes are preferring to be next to each other for social reasons alone, you would be the first ever in captive keeping to do so.

Anyways good discussion, good luck everyone, my thoughts at still the same though. Unless there is a reason for me to put my snakes at risk, I will not do so in this lifetime.

bmm

 

[Lynn Courtney]

Thanks, BMM for your reply I was pleased to get some thoughtful discussion on this topic.

I would be interested to hear more on the natural history and behavior of this species.....anyone?

I would like to correct what I can only suppose is a misconception on your part, the statement about snakes "liking" each other. I am not so foolish or sentimental enough to ascribe such emotions to snakes. If you read my statement carefully I suggested that they might have a need for proximity, possibly. This was not meant to imply any emotional motivation. It is well known that Rattle snakes and Garter snakes demonstrate this same behavior. What I was really trying to determine if this could be interpreted as a sign that proximity was not a primary stressor.

With respect to making 'Choices' for their individual housing being a moral obligation, I think we have already crossed that line by housing them in captivity in the first place.

That being said I think your reply is a most informative and essentially accurate account of the reasons for housing snakes separately, and I think it is beneficial to have it so eloquently stated.

I would like to be able to interpret their behavior more accurately, without apomorphisizing their motivation. So if you or anyone else can elaborate on the more subtle externalized habits snakes under undue stress I would appreciate more input. They feed well, do not bite, or even strike for that matter, nor do they rattle their tails, musk or appear the least agitated whilst being handled. These observations I can only interpret as evidence that they are not unduly stressed. What else should I look for?

Thanks again for your response I was most happy to get such a good response.

 

[bmm]

I don't think anyone can really say. Feeding is obviously a good indicator. But one thing I noticed about three years ago...:

I had two hatchling corns I purchased from the same breeder and when I got them home I housed them together in a ten gallon with multyple hiding spots, etc. Everything was seemingly fine for about four months.

They were amel and anery. Anyways at one point the Amel escaped and was gone for two months. I have never seen such a turn around in a snake before, but the anery started eating more aggresively, coming out more, and just in general becoming more individual instead of having a so so feeding response which I woud have never noticed had one not escaped. That can be a big problem.

People will get two snakes, maybe they have owned one for awhile so they know that ones normal behaviour, but if they have never housed seperatly chances are they have no clue how each can act on its own. I don't agree with housing together at all, but if a person insists on it I would suggest they do so with two corns who they have spent time observing for a couple years before hand.

Another issue would be low level stress that even in some mammals cannot be seen by us or their behaviours let alone in snakes who we know not much about at all compared with mammals. That alone, the unknowing, makes me house alone as well. I am not taking chances to save myself a couple bucks or whatever my reasons are.

"With respect to making 'Choices' for their individual housing being a moral obligation, I think we have already crossed that line by housing them in captivity in the first place.
"

But does that mean any line we wish to cross can be crossed because of the thinking "we have already put them in a cage" That's like saying, well tigers at the zoo are already in a unnatural enviroment so lets make them live together with lions because we feel like it and eat vegetables. We already have them in a cage, so the lines already been crossed.....that thinking, is scary IMHO. Having something in captivity already doesn't give a human a right to experiement with whatever methods they choose just because the animal is already in a cage. It really makes no sense. If it did make sense then why even use heat lights? Why feed just mice? Why give them water when they can probably live without it for weeks at a time? etc etc etc

The mere fact we are able to keep these animals in cages IMHO means we should afford them every courtesy and proper husbandry we can, not push the limits even more just because they are already captive, especially with something like housing together that is becoming a less and less attractive option each year for snake keepers because of the huge variety of risk you are taking.

bmm

 

[ChaosCat]

I do have 2 males in a 4' x 2' x 2' neo that have worked out well. Only reason I keep them together is because they have been together since babies according to the original owner. I have never seen a problem, neither one has ever been sick, they both eat in separate containers, and have never attacked each other. I've also had females in them during mating season and never seen them attack each other-just follow each other around when they get confused as to who the female is!

I have 2 hides on the cool end, and 2 on the warm end. Both seem to like congregating in one hide, rather than different hides.

I think adults can be housed together WITH CAUTION. Always feed in separate containers at the same time. Don't house more than 3 adults in a large cage. Always keep an eye on them after feeding-I try to leave them apart for a couple hours (usually while I'm cleaning the cage out) and it works out good. Always make sure there are twice as many hides as per snake.

I never keep hatchlings together-once they are out of the egg, each one goes into a separate container.

I've rarely heard of cannibalism in adults that didn't have some other ingredient to it, such as one eating a mouse and the other grabbing onto said mouse. I have heard of hatchlings eating each other for no reason at all.

I'd say if you have the space, just play it safe and get a 2nd cage.

-cat