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Aggression - New Food or Coincidence?

D

Dirk94

New member
Hey all,
Bad news coming your way. As some of you may know, I have been feeding my mice a homemade "lab block" as of yesterday. It was approved by some of the people on the forum, so I don't think it has to do with the gruesome carnage of what you are about to hear.

After supper, I decided to walk upstairs to where I keep my pair of mice, my first breeding project. The male was laying limply with his face buried in the substrate. His tail and hind area were covered in something brownish, I thought it was just dhiarrea and that maybe my new food might have caused it. He still wasnt moving, so I picked him up; he squirmed a little. Upon closer examination, his scrotum, which used to be prominent, was missing, apparently chewed off by the female mouse. The brown "dhiarrea", was actually dried blood. He looked on the fringe of death, barely moving at all, so I currently have him in a homemade CO2 gas chamber - it might take a couple more minutes until he is totally gone.

So, I have heard stories of this happening before, but am wondering what the reason might be. I did just start feeding the pair my homemade formula yesterday, but I don't think that could have caused so much aggression in such a short amount of time. Any ideas of what might have caused this massacre?

Secondly, what should I do with the female mouse? Leave her be for now and get a male in a little while (I am not in high need of mice right now, I still have a good amount in the freezer).

Thanks all,
--Mike
 
Okay well, I tried to gas the poor little guy...he wouldn't go. He was in a chamber FULL of CO2 for 15 minutes and he wasn't dead. I even tested to make sure the CO2 was in there -- I dropped a lit match in at about 12 minutes and it went out as soon as it passed into the container. So, I decided to give cervical dislocation a try...I pulled firmly on his tail, felt the pop and heard the crack...his skull was completely severed from his spine, I could feel an empty gap between his head and the rest of his body. To make sure he was dead, I blew on him a little.....he twitched...... that part pretty much made me cry.....so....as a last resort....I held the poor thing under water.....he twitched twice and within 5 seconds he was gone.

This tough little guy had to put up with getting his scrotum eaten off while he was still conscious, getting gassed, getting his head dislocated from his body, and finally drowning. I feel like crap right now.

Thanks,
--Mike
 
Wow that's rough. And yes, I've had that happen to mice before, and although I don't know how 'normal' it is, it does happen, so don't feel alone. Anyway, you might want to cull that female and get a new breeding pair to ensure that never happens again, and of course, clean the enclosure real good lol. As far as the male twitching, it's possible that he was dead after you broke his neck, because sometimes involuntary twitching will happen. I'm not sure it would happen for that long afterward though, like when you put it in the water.

Sorry that you had to live through that mouse's suffering, but it happens, as sucky as that is.
 
Thanks, I'll go with your advice and cull her off. She is from the pet store, so would it be safe to cull her and then freeze her for later use? Or might she have some worms or parasites?

Thanks,
--Mike
 
Unfortunately, this happens and there is so many reasons for it, that you may never know. How long has the pair been together? How old were they? Could she have been pregnant? That usually has nothing to do with it. I know that sometimes a female will kill the male, shortly after birth, but that is rare, too. I dun know?

I really doubt, that it has anything to do with the food. It may have been a territorial issue or something.

I am really sorry for your loss and what you had to bear.

Good luck and if you need anything, just give a yell.

Wayne
 
Today was their sixth day together. I'm not sure exactly how hold they are as I got them from the pet store. Also, she has gotten pretty jumpy the last two days, and will constantly run around the cage and then immiediately change direction. Maybe that had something to do with it? Oh, and also, it must have been a full out brawl, but with the female dominating -- after the gassing didn't work, i realized that one of the male's eyes was also missing.

Thanks,
--Mike
 
That makes sense. It was more a territorial thing. They may have been squabbling for a while and it finally blew up. Also, good call on K-Oing the female. She might not have taken to any other male.

I am not sure if you are planning on breeding feeders, but you may want to consider buying younger pups and placing them together or purchasing an established pair. It's a bit less stressful.

I am sorry again!

Wayne
 
Actually I haven't culled her yet. I'm not sure if she is pregnant, so I will wait two more weeks and if she is once her young are weaned I will cull her. I just wanna be sure there aren't any little bits of snake food growing inside her before i cull her; that would be a waste!

Thanks,
--Mike
 
Dirk94 said:
Actually I haven't culled her yet. I'm not sure if she is pregnant, so I will wait two more weeks and if she is once her young are weaned I will cull her. I just wanna be sure there aren't any little bits of snake food growing inside her before i cull her; that would be a waste!

Thanks,
--Mike
Click to expand...

Gotcha! Good Call and I am sorry I missed that! Ya know, if you didn't want to cull her and if you don't care about inbreeding, since you are just breeding feeders anyway, you could keep a male from her litter and then you shouldn't have a future problem.

Just a thought,

Wayne
 
Acutally, that's a great suggestion Wayne! I hadn't even thought of that! I'm not sure if she is pregnant yet, but they did spend six days together so there might be a chance. If she is indeed preggers, I'll do what you suggested, but if she isn't I'll just cull her off.

Thanks,
--Mike
 
You never know, maybe she attacked because he was trying to mate with her when she was already pregnant? I dunno if that ever happens with mice, as I thought that they don't smell as good to the male when pregnant.
 
They were together for six days. I'm don't think that would be the case considering they are the only two together. If he got her pregnant I think it would be his instinct to leave her alone and not try more? Don't know, but thanks for the input.

--Mike
 
I have way more experience with gerbils than mice, but perhaps you did the intro wrong and they tried coexisting but finally she had enough? When you put them together did you just toss them in the cage together or did you put vanilla on their butts to make them smell the same? I know with most rodents making them smell the same helps with introductions. A fight from a bad intro can happen right off or even a month later depending on the size of the cage.
 
I did just put the two together in a 10gallon aquarium. So, for the vanilla, do I just put a drop of vanilla extract on their butts?

Thanks,
--Mike
 
Dirk94 said:
I did just put the two together in a 10gallon aquarium. So, for the vanilla, do I just put a drop of vanilla extract on their butts?

Thanks,
--Mike
Click to expand...

Yeah, something like that. I haven't had much success, using scents to get mice together. The smell doesn't last that long and they still wind up, doing what you feared they may do.

One thing that has given us some success, is when we introduced new mice together. Start off with a clean tank, fresh litter, a new hide, plenty of shredded paper to play in, a big wheel, fresh water and a lot of food. We try to get them more interested in the new surrounding, so they don't worry about the new person in the tank.

Sometimes works!

Wayne
 
I had used all of what you suggested, Wayne. We had some rodent stuff left over from a gerbil a long while back, so I bleached it all and washed it off. The settup was a 10 gallon aquarium, a red tube thing, a wooden barrel, a food dish, a water bottle, a wheel, and brand new bedding.

Thanks,
--Mike
 
Hi, sounds good.. a few things though.. Once she is going to deliver, remove the wheel or she'll take the pups on a spin if she decided to nest in the wheel. Keep in mind about 2 1/2 gallons per mouse.

They love tissues for nests ;)
 
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