Bloodred Questions

[pcar]

Ok, this is a gene that I haven't really gotten into yet, so I have a few questions about it.

1) I have heard that a snake can't be het Bloodred, so how does a Bloodred crossed to a non-bloodred work?

2) The names Diffused and Bloodred are in a sense the same thing, correct?

3) If an animal can't be het Bloodred, does that mean that they show tendencies towards bloodred/diffused?

and finally:
4) Bloodred hatchlings are distinguished by the "Bald" Head pattern and checks seperated down the middle...correct?

Thanks for any info.

 

[Kat]

A bit of explaination about bloodred cornsnakes. The bloodred look is the combination of two factors. The first is a gene which in its homozygous form causes a completely checkerless belly and reduces the side patterns. The second influence is line-breeding for particularly red specimens.

1) I have heard that a snake can't be het Bloodred, so how does a Bloodred crossed to a non-bloodred work?

A snake can't really be het bloodred, but it can be het for the diffuse gene. A snake het for the diffuse gene often shows partial belly checkering, but it's not guaranteed.

2) The names Diffused and Bloodred are in a sense the same thing, correct?

Not quite. The term 'Diffused' was coined to distinguish corns with the gene half of the bloodred influence that lacked the line-breeding necessary for the typical bloodred coloration. Diffused is to Bloodred what Amel is to Candycane.

3) If an animal can't be het Bloodred, does that mean that they show tendencies towards bloodred/diffused?

Boy is this a loaded question. Unless a snake is known to come from bloodred lines, you really can't claim it has 'bloodred tendencies'. The partial checkering, bald/skull head pattern, and even faded side markings can all be observed in perfectly normal cornsnakes that never had a bloodred or diffuse ancestor.

Can something that came from bloodred lines show some of the looks, though? You bet.

and finally:
4) Bloodred hatchlings are distinguished by the "Bald" Head pattern and checks seperated down the middle...correct?

Nope. The best way to tell a bloodred is to look at a combination of it's coloring, the reduced pattern on the sides, and the COMPLETE LACK of belly checkers. If a "Bloodred" has belly checks, even if they barely exist at all, it's only heterozygous for the genetic component to the morph, and thus is what people would term 'het' bloodred.

-Kat

 

[pcar]

Thanks for the explination Kat.

 

[Serpwidgets]

Hopefully a couple of pics will help out, too.

This is the difference between bloodred and diffused hatchlings, the bloodred being the one with the gray head and gray background:

This is the difference between bloodred and diffused adults:

(The blood is a bit washed out in the pic, but you get the idea. )

 

[pcar]

yea, those pics help out a bit. thanks Serp.

So, what other morph could show the "bald" head pattern that is typically only seen on the Bloodred, but has belly checks?

I only ask this because I have never seen anyother morph with that spicific head pattern.

 

[desertanimal]

The partial checkering, bald/skull head pattern, and even faded side markings can all be observed in perfectly normal cornsnakes that never had a bloodred or diffuse ancestor.

I don't know the answer myself, I'm just redirecting your attention to what Kat said about that.

 

[diamondlil]

Hopefully a couple of pics will help out, too.

This is the difference between bloodred and diffused hatchlings, the bloodred being the one with the gray head and gray background:

This is the difference between bloodred and diffused adults:

(The blood is a bit washed out in the pic, but you get the idea. )

Great comparisons, nice to see it demonstrated so clearly

 

[Serpwidgets]

So, what other morph could show the "bald" head pattern that is typically only seen on the Bloodred, but has belly checks?

I only ask this because I have never seen anyother morph with that spicific head pattern.

I also haven't seen any non-blood/non-diffused corns with a completely bald head pattern like the hatchling in my comparison pic.

 

[pcar]

ok, Do you know of any way that we can explain this?

Belly Shot:

 

[Shaky]

Cool animal.
It looks like it will shed soon.
After a couple sheds, it should be a bit clearer what you can expect from it.
It definitely poses a problem for the standard definitions. Maybe this one snake will cause a rewrite. A lot like what's going on in the 'cubed' animals - offspring defying conventional definitions.
As I said, nice critter, and whoeven winds up with it, you should keep track of progress.

Now, questions for you:
1. What are the parents' genetics?

2. What lines were the parents from?

 

[pcar]

Parents are as follows:

Mother is from Don, was sold to me as an Okeetee het Ghost (proven it is not het Ghost)
Father is the son from this one's mother (his father is a Snow that was proven this year to be carrying hypo)

this is the first year for the father to be breeding, and I bred back to mother to test out hets. Didn't think this was going to come out. Will probably breed them again next year and see if I get the same thing.

mother:

Father:

Father's Father (this guy was a Petco special, so I dont' know what all he is carrying. Found out this year he is either het or homo Hypo as he produced Ghosts when crossed with a Hypo het Anery A):

 

[Serpwidgets]

ok, Do you know of any way that we can explain this?

I don't think it has anything to do with the diffusion gene.

Also, I don't think definitions will need to be changed over this. :santa:

 

[pcar]

not trying to do that. I am just trying to figure out what I have. would be nice to know.

 

[Serpwidgets]

Also, how many hatchlings were there in total, and how many of them looked anything like that?

Here's an example of the type of stuff you can get from snakes that aren't related to bloods or carrying the diffusion gene.

 

[pcar]

I will have to get a complete count, but there were at least 3 counting this snake that had this strange head patterning out of a clutch of 8 eggs. This one was the most dramatic and eye catching, but I can get shots of the rest of them. They should be shedding in the next few days.

 

[Serpwidgets]

not trying to do that. I am just trying to figure out what I have. would be nice to know.

LOL, I know I was responding to Shaky's comment.

Also, the above two examples I posted show what is often observed in hets for diffusion, too. (This is why I don't like the generally popular idea of assuming something is het for the gene based only on the head/belly pattern. I don't mean you specifically, I mean it happens a lot in general. )

The one you posted appears to be something else. :shrugs: If you're getting multiple examples, it would probably be worthwhile to explore what it is through breeding trials. Be sure to let us know what sexes they all are, too. Pics of all of the clutchmates (including the normal ones) will help.

 

[Shaky]

OK OK
maybe i'm a' jumpin' the gun. :crazy02:
I thought that the bald head was a definite marker for bloodred.

Natural variation can come up with a lot of stuff, but there's definitely something going on with those snakes. T

The parents are really something, pcar!

 

[pcar]

The parents are really something, pcar!

Thanks Shaky. They turned into some beautiful snakes...very colorful. they were almost black as babies.

Anyway, Serp, I will get pictures of the rest of the Clutch this weekend and get them up here. I was already planning on keeping this guy, and possibly the rest of the ones with the strange head patterns so that I could breed them together and back to the parents and see what is going on.

thanks all for the help so far. Will post no later than monday with updated pictures.

 

[Shaky]

PS- see you at the Austin herp show

 

[pcar]

OK, here are pictures of the entire clutch that this strange guy came from. I don't have any of them seperated yet, nor do I have all of them sexed, but of the ones with the most balding, I have 2 males and one female.

1:

2:

3:

4:

5:

6:

7:

Number 7 is the one that I posted above to start this conversation. He has the lightest coloration out of all 7 of them. Number 6 is the next one that shows the most balding on the head, and is also lighter than the rest. and number 5 has some balding, but not as much as the other two and is also more in color that I would expect from this pairing.

PS- see you at the Austin herp show

Deffinately. On another note, have you by chance heard from Gary lately?