Burmate or Not?

[Bug22baby]

This spring will be my first time breeding. I will have 3 females that are more than big enough for breeding and two males. Im trying to decide wether to burmate or not. I was just wondering if anyone could give me any insight on burmating. I was thinking of burmating my snakes. I thought maybe since in my apartment I only have heat in the living room only, and by shuting the bedroom door it will keep it cool. Probley in the cool 60's (not sure exactly), I could place them in smallar then normal tubs and stack them near the window to keep it cool, but not cold. I live in Michigan so its chilly outside. I do alot of traveling around the chirstmas holiday and am in and out dec-jan. So I thought of burmating beginning of Dec. Until Feb 1. which it will be the quietest time there (college student). Is 2 months a good amount of time? And does this sound reasonable for burmating? I have several cornsnake books both of Kathy's manuals. Just was wondering if anyone had any thoughts? Thanks Much Amanda

 

[Joejr14]

From what I've gathered through email conversations with breeders and talking about this on the boards is that brumating seems to help first time males a little bit with fertilization rates.

A lot of times clutches seem to be pretty poor and a first time male sired the clutch---but other times they're perfectly fine. I guess it's a crapshoot.

Some people brumate, others don't. Some will tell you that you have to, while others never do and have perfectly fine results.

Economically it's better to brumate. You're not feeding during this time and you get a pretty good cycle as far as when to introduce and when to expect hatchlings and eggs.

Ultimately, the decision is yours.

 

[Drizzt80]

What Joe said, but I would add that I personally believe I have better success with those males and females that have brumated.

D80

 

[Bug22baby]

Well two of the females and both males have been bred prior to me owning them. One female has not so it will be her first year, shes a 2001 and is the biggest cornsnake I have ever saw lol. If the previous breeder burmates and then I dont would it ruin results in the spring? I would rather not burmate for Im nervous that I could cause harm since I have never done it before. But Im willing to give it a try if its thought to give me more of a sucess in the spring. I know that I have a normal male who has never been bred or burmated and he goes off food and looks for a mate from january to march as if he was ready! If I were to burmate is there any specific dangers to watch for? I was ready Kathys cornsnake manual and she talks about how the temps get warmer from time to time without any ill effects, but then I read also on a forum on burmating that temps in the 65 range could be harmful. If I cant keep it cooler then 65 consistantly would it be bad to keep them that low? Also whats the shortest amount of time you can burmate? Thanks for your comments, I know its early to be thinking about burmating. But Im trying to decide how much weight I wanna put on my females. If Im gonna burmate them I wanna make sure they have a lil extra weight to them, but if I choose not to then I could feed them continuously and not need the extra weight for burmating. Thanks Again Amanda

 

[Drizzt80]

If I were to burmate is there any specific dangers to watch for? I was ready Kathys cornsnake manual and she talks about how the temps get warmer from time to time without any ill effects, but then I read also on a forum on burmating that temps in the 65 range could be harmful. If I cant keep it cooler then 65 consistantly would it be bad to keep them that low? Also whats the shortest amount of time you can burmate?

From 'heat off' to 'heat on' time, I had two groups this season. Most of my breeders were brumated for 70 days and one smaller group was for 57 days. The group at 57 days I wanted to be up to weight (300+ grams) before turning off their heat. I wanted the smaller group to be 'close' to the larger group as far as breeding and laying times, so shortened the overall time for them. There did not appear to be a difference in fertility between the two groups. (Before their heat is turned off they have gone minimum two weeks without food to clear the digestive system.) After the 'heat on' date, they go a minimum of 5 days before they get offered food.

The biggest danger with the 65 degree temp, from my understanding, is that their metabolism isn't shut down enough, and their body is still looking for food to digest. All of my brumated snakes were kept within the 50-55 degree temps, with an occasional dip to 47 or 48.

D80

 

[Drizzt80]

FWIW, my first year breeding I followed Kathy's 'directions' just about to the letter and pretty much follow them still with minor modifications from my own personal experiences. So I guess what I'm saying is that if you are planning to breed, then follow what she has in her book, gain your experience (you WILL run into problems . . .), and make your own modifications based on that experience.

D80

 

[Bug22baby]

Thanks for some advice. Im gonna read more into the new manual of Kathys, I havent looked over that one much. Basically look more to the old one. I belive Im gonna go ahead and burmate the way I planned to. Opening a window if I need to cool the room down more. Living in michigan I have cold weather on my side to cool the room down. I may shorten the burmation time up to maybe 45 days. I guess the worst that can happen is not have sucess with breeding by shortening the time. But then again If some people dont do it at all, then I dont think a shorter time can totally ruin it for me. Also Drizzt80, I was looking at your website. Would you mind shareing how you made your incubator. I was planning on purchaseing one, but it looks like I have most of what you show on the site laying around from my turtle of the past.
Oh ya one last question, do you totally cover your corns from light, or partially or do you allow the light to come and go as the day goes on?

Thanks For Everything!
Amanda

 

[Drizzt80]

The incubator is just a 32 gal rubbermaid tub with water. I use a wire basket, upside down, to hold the egg boxes above the water level. The pump is to circulate the water to keep the temps even. I use two 50 watt submersible heaters, overkill, but if one should burn out the other should be working. I am planning to find a medium sized fridge to make an incubator out of in the future . . . basically for more room. I have some minor concerns about humidity with this system, but they don't stop me from using it. Basically, some of my clutches 'seem' too wet, but they are hatching out fine, and I get some very minor amounts of fungus on an egg or two here and there. I don't like Hovabators as the one time (1st time) that I used one I was constantly adding water . . . with this system, if you feel it's too humid you can open the lid a crack or two and let some moist air out. Lastly, I'm able to keep two layers of egg boxes in my incubator, and the top layer is about 1-2 degrees cooler than the bottom if the room temp. is much cooler than my incubation temps. I cure that with a towel or blanket laid over the top.

As for light, snakes in the tubs/racks get ambient light from the room during the day. Snakes in my glass cages all have striplights with fluorescent lighting set on times. Not because they need it (or UVB) necessarily, but because it looks nice.

Glad I could be of some kind of help.
D80

 

[Duff]

I know I'm a total newb with the whole breeding thing and all, but if you ask me, there are many areas in the corns natural habitat where brumationg temps are never reached, and they are still thriving just fine in those areas. I can absolutely see it helping younger males (and maybe females too) cause they can kinda build up while they sleep, but I think most breeders do it to save on feeding and get a vacation from the caretaking. Not that I'm knocking any of that, cause for the large-scale breeders, that's a hell of a lot of work, so I'd do it too, since it doesn't seem to hurt. But overall, looking at their natural range and habitat, I personally don't think it's necessary for well matured snakes. And if you don't need the break, than I'm the type to wonder how much they like being that cold? I know it may not be bad or detrimental to them, but that doesn't mean they really like it (would you?). I didn't brumate this past winter, and although the 1st clutch didn't turn out so good (only 1 egg hatched) the 2nd clutch of 13 is still all looking good so far. And just for the record, she double-clutched on her own.

 

[princess]

Duff you're right, in many areas it never gets terribly cool but the snakes are very good at going underground or someplace where the temps can give them a little relief.

I unfortunately don't have the facilities to brumate but I go through the 'emptying' phase with the snakes and then keep them in a dimly lit small tub with a hide and a water bowl for about 2 months at room temperature or so. I'm going to try the attic this year I think but I have to brumate early as in December to Feb, it'll get too cold up there so my big girls will get an oct/nov brumation this year.

And Amanda BTW, it's BRU-mation, just FYI!! :cheers:

 

[Bug22baby]

Princess Thanks for the spelling tip lol, I probley would of kept spelling it wrong if you never told me :crazy02:

 

[Sasheena]

For what it's worth, this is what I do here in Arizona where it's hot as hades for a large proportion of the year.

Thanksgiving is the last large meal for my snakes for the year. Two weeks later they all go out into the garage. They stay there until Valentine's day when I pull them out and heat them up again. It works to keep it on "holidays" when I can easily remember things. It also helps if I'm going away for a two week Christmas break. I make sure they have water and check them every week or two.

While it may not be necessary, it's a great time to take a break. I slow down mouse production about the middle of October, cutting my breeder tubs down to 1.1 mice per tub ... which means they don't need to be changed or checked nearly as often either. About the time the snakes wake up, the mice go into serious production again, with my freezing off all newborn litters once a week. (about 1/3rd of the babies get frozen this way, any litters born the day after I change cages won't be picked off for future feeding of hatchlings)

Anyway. There ya go!

 

[princess]

That sounds like a really good system with the mice and a huuuuuge brumation period for the snakes!!

I only give my snakes a 7-8 week stint of room temps! They're getting more this year basically because I have more snakes to deal with and I want a break from cleaning...the big ones make such big poops!!!

 

[Jessica71]

Princess, I know what you mean about the poops - they're quite easy to deal with when they're little but as my snakes grow I'm finding out cleaning is not always so easy as they grow up!

Sasheena, just out of curiosity as I know nothing about keeping mice and buy frozen mice for my snakes - do the female mice notice the young being removed? And secondly, do you kill them by freezing or do you kill them another way and then freeze them? On a similar note, my ten eggs are now on day 56 and looking ahead, if I have any deformed hatchlings - which I am sort of expecting after some of the ones people have had recently - I notice Kathy Love says in her new book that they should be cooled in the fridge before freezing to euthanize, as otherwise painful water droplets form: should I do this if this happens, or have them euthanized by a vet? Sounds very morbid, but I'm not really, I just want to be prepared!

 

[princess]

Chilling in the fridge to induce unconsciousness and then freezing (which if done dirrectly causes ice chrystals to form in the tissue which is painful) to kill them is the neat-n-tidy, kosher way of doing it. The very quick and 100% effective way is to go outside with a hammer and give them a good whallop on the head...in effect totally smashing their central nervous system.


I do agree though that the first way is nicer....much nicer.

 

[Jessica71]

Thanks! I'm too soft for the wallop on the head method, so I would go for the fridge-freezer.

 

[Sasheena]

Sasheena, just out of curiosity as I know nothing about keeping mice and buy frozen mice for my snakes - do the female mice notice the young being removed? And secondly, do you kill them by freezing or do you kill them another way and then freeze them? On a similar note, my ten eggs are now on day 56 and looking ahead, if I have any deformed hatchlings - which I am sort of expecting after some of the ones people have had recently - I notice Kathy Love says in her new book that they should be cooled in the fridge before freezing to euthanize, as otherwise painful water droplets form: should I do this if this happens, or have them euthanized by a vet? Sounds very morbid, but I'm not really, I just want to be prepared!

For newborn pinks some say it's most humane to kill em before freezing, but you can't gas them, takes too long (they're resistant to hypoxia), and I've found that whacking them results in "pinkie slush" which really isn't my major need. I tend to just freeze them. This is my method for any baby rodent that has its eyes closed.

As far as euthanizing the hatchlings I tend to put them straight into the freezer when they are a grotesque creature that could expire with any breath anyway. I did have to euthanize one of my adult corns, with her I put her in a 9" deli cup and placed her in the refridgerator. Several hours later I regretfully placed her in the freezer. For the non-feeders, when I say euthanized, it's frequently a euphamism.... I gave them to my kingsnake non-feeders and they took care of the whole thing. It can be VERY painful to watch, however, but better that one lives than that two die from starvation.

 

[princess]

It can be VERY painful to watch, however, but better that one lives than that two die from starvation.

That is so true. Better that the corn dies so the kingsnake can live rather than throw them both in the bin.

 

[Jynx]

For what its worth I only do what I call a "half brumation." The temps in my area just don't get cold enough to fully brumate. If they do get cold enough, they don't stay cold enough. I always try to keep lights as close to the sun's schedule as possible. Since my temps don't get low enough, I keep the heat on, that way my snakes aren't in "limbo" (not cold enough to induce brumation, which will still use up alot of calories and much needed mass, and not warm enough for proper digestion, etc.) but my photoperiods reduce greatly, and I have had no problem with breeding responses.

 

[Bug22baby]

Is it suggested to leave the sunlight coming in naturally. Or to cover the window or the tubs so that they get no light? I plan to put the rack directly in front of the window and cut the heat. But they will be in my bedroom where I will be turning the light on ocassionally. So should I block the tubs or not? I dont have the option of placing them in a seperate room, I only have a small 2 bedroom apt with a roomate. So until next year I share a room with 11 snakes and a dog lol.