Corn and rat?

[Bekah Huggins]

My book says cornsnakes are just a different rat snake,

Can they reproduce?

If so is it wrong to mix them?

 

[Dave123]

Yes, cornsnakes can also be called red rat snakes and yes that can reproduce. You can cross corns with some other species but I would really keep it between corns and corns.

 

[Roy Munson]

Yes, cornsnakes can also be called red rat snakes and yes that can reproduce. You can cross corns with some other species but I would really keep it between corns and corns.

That's just your opinion though. I'm not criticizing it, because for the most part, I share your opinion. But there's nothing wrong with creating hybrids, as long as you're honest when labeling them for sale. You can't even say that it's unnatural, since it happens in the wild. In fact, we have no idea how many non-corn genes our "pure" corns may be carrying.

 

[Dave123]

That's just your opinion though. I'm not criticizing it, because for the most part, I share your opinion. But there's nothing wrong with creating hybrids, as long as you're honest when labeling them for sale. You can't even say that it's unnatural, since it happens in the wild. In fact, we have no idea how many non-corn genes our "pure" corns may be carrying.

Are hybrids what you get when you cross a corn with another kind of snake? Well I was not trying to say it was bad but looks like I did. Like jungle corns are corns and some other kind but I didn't want anyone to get the idea to cross a corn with any kind of snake they could think of. Still not too sure what Bekah Huggins was asking though. Ohh well listen to Dean he is way more experienced.

 

[Roy Munson]

Are hybrids what you get when you cross a corn with another kind of snake? Well I was not trying to say it was bad but looks like I did. Like jungle corns are corns and some other kind but I didn't want anyone to get the idea to cross a corn with any kind of snake they could think of. Still not too sure what Bekah Huggins was asking though. Ohh well listen to Dean he is way more experienced.

Hybrids are crosses between two separate species. So if you cross a corn (Pantherophis guttatus) to a black rat snake (Pantherophis obsoleta), you would produce corn/black rat hybrids. Jungle corns are a cross of two even more distantly related species, corns and California kingsnakes. Corns and black rats share a genus (Pantherophis), but California kingsnakes are in a separate genus (Lampropeltis) from both of them. But the more unrelated two species are, the less likely it is that they can hybridize. You couldn't produce viable offspring in a cross between a corn and a cobra, or a boa, or a viper.

FYI: Intergrades are crosses between subspecies. For example, California kings (Lampropeltis getula californiae) and Desert kings (Lampropeltis getula splendida) breed and produce intergrades.

 

[Bekah Huggins]

Interesting, ok at a local pet store down the street they have corn-milksnake hybrids; What would come mixing these with corn-king hybrids?

A new species or would corn dominate? :eek1:

 

[Dave123]

You couldn't produce viable offspring in a cross between a corn and a cobra,

Darn I wanted a corn cobra. :grin01: But anyway thats for all of that info even if it is in a different language.

I just saw that you posted Bekah, not too sure what you would get, thats a question for someone like Dean but sounds like to me the corn would dominate just from what I know which I can tell you isnt too much. We will see what others can tell you.

 

[Roy Munson]

Interesting, ok at a local pet store down the street they have corn-milksnake hybrids; What would come mixing these with corn-king hybrids?

A new species or would corn dominate? :eek1:

You can't predict how the genes will shuffle in these crosses. It seems that most of the first generation corn x king hybrids I've seen look like a fairly even blend of the parent species' characteristics. If you cross these siblings together, you'd probably get similar snakes to the sibling parents. If you wanted to produce snakes that had more corn influence, you could breed a 50/50 corn/king with a "pure" corn to produce 75/25 corn/kings. Same goes for increasing the king influence.

In these kinds of crosses, you wouldn't really be creating new species. In nature, new species being created from hybridization is fairly rare (if I recall correctly). But it can happen if the hybrids are fertile, and if they are better suited for some environmental niche that the parent species aren't already exploiting, or if they're isolated from the parent populations...

 

[Bekah Huggins]

I'm going to try this in the future.

 

[MegF.]

It would be a little hard to cross species that lays eggs with ones that bear live young anyway. i.e. boas/vipers with cornsnakes.

 

[Shade]

Would these hybrids be fertile, or does that depend on how distantly related the two snakes are?

 

[MegF.]

I believe it depends upon how dissimilar they are. There's also the question of genetics. Some genes just don't mix as they've found when they've come out with new morphs.

 

[Hypancistrus]

I'm going to try this in the future.

Can I ask why? What will your goals be in pursuing this??

I have never been a fan of hybrid animals. :shrugs: We see a few varieties of hybrid fish in the aquarium trade, and they all look deformed and ugly to me. It also bothers me because of the issue of bloodlines. Even if you clearly label them as hybrids, if Joe Schmoe down the street buys them and breeds them, will he label them as such? Or will he sell them as pure Corns / pure Kings to some unsuspecting buyer? :eek1: The whole idea has just never sat well with me for some reason.

 

[Roy Munson]

Can I ask why? What will your goals be in pursuing this??

I have never been a fan of hybrid animals. :shrugs: We see a few varieties of hybrid fish in the aquarium trade, and they all look deformed and ugly to me. It also bothers me because of the issue of bloodlines. Even if you clearly label them as hybrids, if Joe Schmoe down the street buys them and breeds them, will he label them as such? Or will he sell them as pure Corns / pure Kings to some unsuspecting buyer? :eek1: The whole idea has just never sat well with me for some reason.

It's a fair question, but it's too late to put the genie back into the bottle. You'll never know how many creamsicles went to wholesalers and were eventually sold as amels with no mention of emoryi heritage. There are many who believe that all ultra and ultramel corns are grey rat x corn hybrids. Ultramels have been heavily crossed into many lines. When was the last time you saw an ultra/ultramel listed with a hybrid caveat? I've never seen it. Hybridization of corns and related colubrids occurs in the wild too. You'll never know how many captive corns are carrying non-corn genes.

If it can be done, and if there's a market for it, it will be done. There's a market for hybrids. I used to feel the same way you do about it, but my idealism got smashed by the reality out there. :shrugs:

 

[bill38112]

Last time I posted I was accused of be preachy, so I'll try to keep from pulling out the soap box.

I think it would be helpful to acknowledge that our fancy is in its infancy and we could benefit from taking a look at other species breeders and learn from them. Mankind started out with the wolf and has bred everything from Great Danes to Chihuahuas. On the other hand we have kept cats nearly as long as dogs but there is only a few pounds difference between the breeds of domestic cat. The Japanese have been keeping ornamental carp for thousands of years. The serious selective breeding of snakes is only a few decades old.

During my lifetime I have seen amazing progress in some species. Anyone remember what guppies looked like in the 50's and 60's? Progress like that was possible because of the short life cycle of the species. You could go through 15 generations in five years. It was also possible because of painstaking record keeping. Some Japanese registries have koi records that are 500 years old. I bred pointed Persians, sometimes called Himalayans, for several years. Although the Siamese blood in Himalayans is 100 years back in the pedigree, It is still easy to pick out the solid color Persian that has Siamese blood in its ancestry.

At this point in time I'm not sure we have a feel for how resistant to genetic manipulation snakes are. Certainly we see a wide range of size and color in the wild. I think most experienced snake breeders feel like selective breeding is still a crap shoot. So,I side with Ray. You better know where you're going when your start hybridizing. And I sure wish we used the ACR had the same clout the AKC registry has. I'd feel way more confident in undertaking a breeding program.

 

[CaptainJack]

So are reptile hybrids a lot more fertile than mammal hybrids? Like mules are horse/donkey hybrids and they are almost always unable to breed. I remember once a lady I knew who ran a horse rescue got in two mules and put them in a pen with some stallions because she thought all mules were infertile and both of them ended up pregnant. Before that I actually thought they were all infertile too.

 

[jaxom1957]

So are reptile hybrids a lot more fertile than mammal hybrids? Like mules are horse/donkey hybrids and they are almost always unable to breed. I remember once a lady I knew who ran a horse rescue got in two mules and put them in a pen with some stallions because she thought all mules were infertile and both of them ended up pregnant. Before that I actually thought they were all infertile too.

Although most hobbyists refer to them as "hybrids", many are merely intergrades, breedings between animals of the same species but differing subspecies. There are ongoing conversations within herpetologists about the actual relationships between the different New World rat snakes. The fact that the offspring of breeding an emoryi to a g. guttata are fertile would weigh on the side of them being separate subspecies rather than separate species. The difference between the two appears more in line with the difference between a chihuahua and a cocker spaniel than the difference between a rabbit and a mink.

 

[gwb8568]

hibirds aer teh kewl..............they are in the wild and should not be considered anything new. breeding a male donkey to a female horse results in a mule and those have been around forever. as for the re-selling or misrepresentation, that would have to do with the persons overall etiquette. there have been many automobiles sold as "never wrecked" that might have even had parts from other vehicles used to repair it. it's just all a part of society and business in general. yeah, there will always be some people who screw up the system to benefit themselves without a care in the world about the outcome or the future.

 

[grdn1014]

hibirds aer teh kewl..............they are in the wild and should not be considered anything new. breeding a male donkey to a female horse results in a mule and those have been around forever. as for the re-selling or misrepresentation, that would have to do with the persons overall etiquette. there have been many automobiles sold as "never wrecked" that might have even had parts from other vehicles used to repair it. it's just all a part of society and business in general. yeah, there will always be some people who screw up the system to benefit themselves without a care in the world about the outcome or the future.

ill give that a non-denominational amen

 

[CaptainJack]

Thanks jaxom.