Cutting down on food, yay or nay?

[Thaneem]

Hi everyone. I got my snake in July of 15. He was 3 weeks old at the time, which makes him just short of 1.5 years old now.
Up until a few months ago, he shed just about once every 30 days, but since then has dropped to once every 6 or so weeks. Obviously, this would indicate that his growth rate has slowed.
Now, I currently have him on a 7 day feeding schedule, and he seems to retain between 40% - 60% of the food item as body weight. This has been his typical retention over the course of the year, but since his growth has clearly slowed, my question becomes: is 40%-60% too much retention? If not, what would be a better %? 20% maybe?
I think if I switch him from a 7 day to a 10 day schedule, he'll have retained about 20% by the day of the next feeding.

 

[Dragonling]

Sheds aren't based entirely on growth, though it can be affected by it, and lengthening periods of time between sheds is merely an indication that he has merely gotten bigger. 40-60% retained is fine and should be expected. How much does he weigh now?

 

[Thaneem]

Wow, ok, I'm glad I asked this question. Currently he's 297 grams and I've been feeding him rat pups in the 24-30 gram range since August.

 

[hypnoctopus]

Nearly 300 grams is quite large for his age. I would switch him off rat pups (if he'll eat other prey) to appropriately sized mice. Even though he's only one and a half, I would also reduce his feeding frequency to every 7 to 10 days. He's probably not fat yet, but that level of growth and feeding will eventually catch up with him. Just in comparison, my adult corns that are around that size usually only shed about 4 to 5 times a year.

 

[Dragonling]

Personally at this point I would reduce to 10-14 days. Rats in general have slightly more fat and protein than mice (protein contains 4 calories per gram, while fat provides 9 calories per gram), but this is less significant at smaller sizes. Most "studies" you'll see on feeding rats vs mice are anecdotal, but frequently show somewhat faster growth rate when fed young rats over equally sized mice. I imagine if I had fed my July '15 hatchling rats as well (and not underfed when he was smaller...), he would also be around 300g instead of about 220. The important thing now is to slow down feeding now that he is an "adult" size to prevent obesity.

 

[Nanci]

I'd do the same. A medium adult mouse every 10-14 days.

 

[Thaneem]

Thanks for the replies. I'll definitely switch over from 7 to 10 days.
With the mice vs rats thing, I was really torn on whether to feed rat pups or continue to feed mice (which is what he'd been eating until August). I walked into the reptile expo where I always buy my feeders still unsure. The mouse/rat breeder suggested rats, so I went for it. I know they are fattier, but nutritionally, wouldnt the snake benefit more from a young rat than from an old mouse?

 

[DollysMom]

Well, do you benefit more from fatty food or lean food?

Corn snakes are supposed to be lean and muscular. Gram for gram they get more nutrients from lean mice than from fat rats.

 

[Dragonling]

Rats are just higher calories per gram. That's really it. Eating fat doesn't build fat, eating too many calories does. Granted there's technically more to it than that, particularly for humans who eat lots of carbs as well, but that's as complex as it needs to be really. Feed rats if you like, but consider bumping down to large fuzzies around 18g.

 

[DollysMom]

Lol Dragonling. You stated it better. I was trying to avoid pulling out my college nutrition textbook! 9 kcal per gram of fat, 4 kcal per gram of carb or protein. I remember that without the textbook.

Here's a handy prey chart:

http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

 

[Thaneem]

I've seen this chart before but don't really understand it. If that next to the last column represents calories per gram, then yes, I can see how the rats are fattier. Are there any other columns to focus on? The protein column, mainly?
Part of my issue is honestly trying to find food items of an appropriate weight. The rats seemed a good deal because I could get a whole bunch in the appropriate size, but if they are really going to cause obesity I will avoid them.

 

[Dragonling]

Broccoli could cause obesity in a person if they could possibly consume too many calories from it. Rats are perfectly fine as feeders, and many keepers feed larger meals with longer gaps between them with no signs of obesity. The point I was trying to get across is that you shouldn't treat rats as equal to mice. Continuing with the same size will be just fine, just space out the meals an extra day or so to compensate.

 

[DollysMom]

Broccoli could cause obesity, but it would be difficult to eat enough to do so. Also you get more vitamins and minerals in the same number of broccoli calories as you would from eating equal calories of lard for example.

So for example you could have a rat and a mouse with equal numbers of calories. The mouse would provide more carbs and proteins and less fat than the rat. I don't know the exact breakdown of all the nutritional factors, but I believe most of us feed our snakes mice most of the time in order to provide more balanced nutrients per gram of prey.

The reasons to feed rats that I know is if your corn snake refuses other prey, you run out of mice and have no other choice, or you choose to feed rats for whatever reason you choose to feed rats rather than mice.

So the next logical question is why do those who feed their corn snakes only rats by choice do so?

I don't know. I don't understand it from a nutritional standpoint, but I'd really like to understand. This is meant to be an honest question meant to increase my knowledge, and if it sounds otherwise (which I know it could because I don't see it now), I apologize in advance.

 

[Dragonling]

Rats also have slightly higher protein. In addition, young mice have higher fat content than young rats. It really isn't a significant difference.

 

[DollysMom]

Thanks for the clarification. I have been taught that adult mice are best for adult corn snakes, but maybe that's a myth? Maybe young rats are better than adult mice after all? Sometimes it gets confusing. Just when you think you have learned what you are doing someone comes along to tell you that you don't!

 

[Dragonling]

One really isn't necessarily that much better than the other is the point I'm trying to make. I've heard many people claim that feeding rats will lead to obesity. Without any additional context, that really isn't a true statement.

 

[DollysMom]

Thank you. Now it makes perfect sense. Thanks for your patience and clarification.

 

[Thaneem]

We have a touring reptile expo called 'repticon' that visits the area about once a season. There is always a booth run by a company, 'feeder source', that sells all the feeders at the show. I like to buy from that booth because I can get a bunch of feeders for cheap, and no shipping & handling.
Anyway, when I last went in August, I explained my situation to the guy at the booth and asked his opinion: medium mice or rat pups. He suggested the rats because, he said, mice much above 20 grams are old breeder mice. They aren't as nutritious and rather fatty and gamey.
So, this is a guy who breeds mice and rats for a living saying this, and I have heard it before. But by searching on this forum, I've come across posts where people are saying their snakes get fat on the rats. I guess, then, taking everything I learned here into account, I'm going to keep on with the rats but definitely cut down on feeding.
Thanks all!

 

[Dragonling]

He suggested the rats because, he said, mice much above 20 grams are old breeder mice. They aren't as nutritious and rather fatty and gamey.

Yeah, there is a lot of truth to this. That's why I stick to 20-25g mice, though I will probably get some tasty rats for my recovering females in the summer.