Cutting Mice: Frozen or Thawed?

[patm1313]

So it's that time again, I have to go out to the store and get me some mice. So, I think it would be better to buy a large amount of them in the size above what my corn is eating now (double pinkies). Anyhow, If I were to buy in the larger size I would have to cut down the mice. Here's how I feed right now:

1. I heat up a cup of water in the microwave.
2. I throw the number of mice in and let them thaw, which normally takes under a minute.

Simple enough, but my question is, should I cur them when frozen or when thawed? My thoughts about cutting frozen is that as soon as I thaw it out it would fall apart, but I also think that's possible with cutting thawed.

 

[TWGarland]

Doesn't make any real difference apart from mess as you've said

I used to cut mine after i'd defrosted them, just because it seemed a little easier to physically cut them, and there was comparitively less mess.

 

[Drizzt80]

I don't cut my mice, pinkies, fuzzies, or otherwise. I've never had a reason to and I think it's unnecessary extra work. :shrugs: They stopped cutting them in the wild about 18 years ago. The cornsnake chefs found that more corns were ordering non-cut mice so they took the cut ones off the menu.

D80

 

[TWGarland]

Drizzt80
I don't cut my mice, pinkies, fuzzies, or otherwise. I've never had a reason to and I think it's unnecessary extra work. They stopped cutting them in the wild about 18 years ago. The cornsnake chefs found that more corns were ordering non-cut mice so they took the cut ones off the menu.

D80

Lolz, ok i get the point, but there are benefits to slitting mice aren't there?

Someone posted a scientific study on the topic somewhere, unfortunately i can't find it at the mo.

Doesn't it increase the surface area over which digestion can occur, making digestion easier, and also slitting allows digestive fluids to penetrate the hardier skin quicker, making digestion easier in that way too ? :shrugs:

 

[patm1313]

Thanks all, I guess I'm just going to try to experiment with both. I know about slitting mice to aid digestion, and I already do that.

 

[KJUN]

I don't cut my mice, pinkies, fuzzies, or otherwise. I've never had a reason to and I think it's unnecessary extra work.

Bingo! Cutting mice isn't something that really needs or should be down. Messy, and there is that VERY slim chance they'll aspirate the liquid - very slim chance! People that say their cornsnake is too small to eat pinks don't have a healthy/normal one OR they don't know what they are talking about. If I do end up needing to feed a small meal (like after a hatchling pukes or too a tiny snake (usually a different species), i offer them the entire head and feed the body to a turtle or something. Cutting in half lengthwise is just "not right" in my book....lol. I cut the head off AFTER it is defrosted, but it matters NONE this way.

Cutting a larger mouse in half and offering it both halves separately to "save money" is pretty lame. If the snake is that much of a financial drain, then there is a good chance you shouldn't own the snake in the first place. Feed the snake the right sized WHOLE meal.......and I can't think of better advice than that!

 

[Sanebedlam]

The main advantage to cutting mice is for bad feeders as it makes them smell much yummier to a snake. However if your snake eats fine without slitting why change? why follow the If its not broken fix it till it is policy.

 

[TWGarland]

http://tinyurl.com/2gzdpp

That link is really interesting, it was originally linked in another thread by Nanci that i found in a seach, so thanks Nanci, hope you don't mind me re-posting it

 

[Drizzt80]

The main advantage to cutting mice is for bad feeders as it makes them smell much yummier to a snake.

Acutally, no, the "program" of cutting mice is to ultimately get your snake to grow up faster, yet at the same time people frown on power feeding schedules. :shrugs: So which is it?!

My snakes grow up just fine and dandy with my feeding schedule which I think is actually pretty conservative compared to many others yet my snakes grow fast. I'm not emo-ing my mice when I feed.

It's definitely an intriguing concept, but do those growth rates on that chart continue as the snake gains more size and increases the size of the meal? I'd like to see the growth chart past pinky meals and see if that "non-cutting" animal re-intersects the other lines! If theres' no data on that, then the experiment was stopped too early and the results do not support any idea other than hatchling snakes will grow faster on cut pinkies. I don't feed pinkies that long the way it is, and saving money on 2 extra pinkies per snake isn't worth the trouble in my opinion. :shrugs:

D80

 

[KJUN]

If theres' no data on that, then the experiment was stopped too early and the results do not support any idea other than hatchling snakes will grow faster on pinkies.

Actually, I won't even go THAT far until I observe independent confirmation on a genetically diverse group of hatchlings randomly assigned to different treatments...... regressed against starting snake mass. Pink mass needs to be tested as a standard mass AND as a percentage of body mass of the snake. The problem is that a larger snake DOES grow faster than a smaller snake because it can ingest a larger meal. Analysis can't be an oversimplified graph like that - it must take starting mass into consideration.

I believe the only meaningful graph from THAT data set would be percent of the pink converted to snake body mass versus treatment. THAT would tell something. The previously posted graph can be too misleading to be trusted. Heck, I don't even know if it was on thawed or p/k pinks. That'd potentially change the results - and their interpretation - a LOT.

HOWEVER, I am not surprised if hatchlings cornsnakes have trouble digesting "whole" pink mice. After all, that isn't the main prey they have evolved to handle as in the wild.

I love your point about power feeding. Some are just too short-sided to see their own contradictions?
KJ

 

[Drizzt80]

Just wanted to note that that sentence should have read:
"idea other than hatchling snakes will grow faster on cut pinkies." It certainly doesn't change the validity or accuracy of your thoughts or comments regarding it by any means, but is part of my anal retentiveness!

D80

 

[Roy Munson]

Acutally, no, the "program" of cutting mice is to ultimately get your snake to grow up faster, yet at the same time people frown on power feeding schedules. :shrugs: So which is it?!

I'm glad Pat started this thread, even though some of the discussion may not be strictly on-topic as far as his orignal intentions go. I've been thinking about this slitting business for months, and I've almost started a thread about it a half-dozen times or more. I appreciate seeing some serious viewpoints on the topic.

I've slit everything I feed to all my snakes for about three years. My goal was always to facillitate digestion, and if faster growth was a consequence, it wasn't my intention. Over the years, my feeding schedules have become more and more conservative for a number of reasons. Among these reasons have been time constraints and faster-than-necessary growth rates. I've had a number of snakes, particularly females that weren't brumated in their first or second winters, that just got bigger and pudgier than I wanted them to get. This is despite some very conservative feeding regimens-- even more conservative than Don or Kathy recommend. I've started wondering if the slitting is contributing to this.

This thread has prompted me to decide that I'm probably going to stop slitting prey items for any snakes that are eating less frequently than every six days (which would be any snake that is eating anything larger than fuzzies). I also agree that even the smallest hatchling corns can handle whole tiny pinks. I've only ever split pinks for tiny garter snake neonates. I've never even split pinks for regurge recovery for corns.

Thanks for the insights, Brent and KJ.

 

[patm1313]

I'm glad Pat started this thread, even though some of the discussion may not be strictly on-topic as far as his orignal intentions go. I've been thinking about this slitting business for months, and I've almost started a thread about it a half-dozen times or more. I appreciate seeing some serious viewpoints on the topic.

First, thank you Dean for your insights.
Second, you're right, I didn't really expect this thread to be the one it has become, but really appreciate the oppinion of everyone.

Once again, thanks everyone.

 

[KJUN]

Roy:

I'll admit I'm one of the people that scratched their heads every time you spoke of the growth rate of ALL of your snakes (not just an oddball "easy keeper" or three). The numbers never jived. I knew it was impossible, but I never suspected you were lying. I did wonder if maybe you had partial amnesia, someone feeding when you weren't home, or couldn't count to know 10 days had elapsed since the last feeding......lol. Seriously, some of the things you've apparently seen never made sense to me. I'd even go so far to say it was impossible UNLESS there was something missing.......like you were feeding rats to your mice that went to your snakes weekly....lol.

Maybe THIS is the missing piece that makes it all jive? It makes me suspect the difference might have been found, and I can rest better now...lol.

Here's something to think about, though: this whole time the snakes may be acquiring more energy per meal, but they wouldn't (likely) be getting more vitamins and minerals since those can be considered constant. Is the surplus really going into additional body mass - or is much of it going directly into storage as adipose? Some combination of those two extreme possibilities is most likely, or at least I suspect that would be the most likely case. Are these snakes really benefiting - or just getting heavier faster?

Forget the problem with powerfeeding. Is it possible this practice, when done the the extreme, is actually harmful to breeding adults????? I won't venture a guess at this time.
KJ

 

[Roy Munson]

Roy:

I'll admit I'm one of the people that scratched their heads every time you spoke of the growth rate of ALL of your snakes (not just an oddball "easy keeper" or three). The numbers never jived. I knew it was impossible, but I never suspected you were lying. I did wonder if maybe you had partial amnesia, someone feeding when you weren't home, or couldn't count to know 10 days had elapsed since the last feeding......lol. Seriously, some of the things you've apparently seen never made sense to me. I'd even go so far to say it was impossible UNLESS there was something missing.......like you were feeding rats to your mice that went to your snakes weekly....lol.

Maybe THIS is the missing piece that makes it all jive? It makes me suspect the difference might have been found, and I can rest better now...lol.

:laugh: Well, my memory's pretty good, I keep great records, I'm the only one who feeds my snakes, I don't use rats (except to feed one stubborn, live-feeding Honduran milk youngster), and I'm pretty darned good at counting. LOL. I'm glad we BOTH may have stumbled upon the mysterious "X Factor". I'd always "blamed" TMF for breeding overly-nutritious mice, but this seems more plausible.

Here's something to think about, though: this whole time the snakes may be acquiring more energy per meal, but they wouldn't (likely) be getting more vitamins and minerals since those can be considered constant. Is the surplus really going into additional body mass - or is much of it going directly into storage as adipose? Some combination of those two extreme possibilities is most likely, or at least I suspect that would be the most likely case. Are these snakes really benefiting - or just getting heavier faster?

Oh, I've thought about it. And I've been thinking about it more and more in recent months.

Forget the problem with powerfeeding. Is it possible this practice, when done the the extreme, is actually harmful to breeding adults????? I won't venture a guess at this time.
KJ

If your previously-stated speculations are correct (storage and adipose), then I would venture to guess that it IS harmful. Since I have no skinny adults (go figure ), it can't hurt to go the other route (no slitting) for a while.

 

[tom e]

I've always made three back snips with the 'mouse only' scissors that I keep with my snake gear. I started doing that only because I read here that it was recommended. So this is a bit like reading that we've just discovered that beta carotine causes cancer.. :rofl:

I'm with the whole 'aids digestion' part that Dean suggested though. I will probably continue doing it for my youngsters (have never done it for my adults) because I actually had a scary string of regurges for a couple weeks which stopped after I started snipping, never to return. Could have been a cold snap, could have been coincidence.. Anyway it isn't something that takes up too much of my time with only 10 or so babies to feed..

 

[CALIVIK]

I don't cut my mice, pinkies, fuzzies, or otherwise. I've never had a reason to and I think it's unnecessary extra work. :shrugs: They stopped cutting them in the wild about 18 years ago. The cornsnake chefs found that more corns were ordering non-cut mice so they took the cut ones off the menu.

D80

LOL
I slit just the neck thawed. Have no real reason why, just heard it helps digest them better.
Come to think of it I have been told lately when I post a pic of one of my guys that they look big for their age. I wonder if Dean is right, I think I will stop this little process. It has become a habit, but now I am curious to see if helps in slowing down their growth weight.

 

[Jrgh17]

Interesting stuff.

I slit for small snakes. I'm not really sure if it's detrimental to the others, but it's honestly not worth it to find out. :shrugs: To be perfectly honest, mice creep me out... I'm okay with pinkies and fuzzies, but once they get to hopper stage I am really just irrationally grossed out by them. The less time I have to spend looking at/touching the bigger ones, the better.

As far as hatchling growth rates, I do see benefits to having a snake grow a bit faster, even if others catch up to it eventually. The difference in attitude between a 10 g snake and a 30 g snake is pretty significant. Bigger snakes are easier to handle, and personally, the less crap I get from them the better. And speaking of crap, the poo is much easier to deal with when they're a bit bigger. To top it off, I'd be much more worried about a hatchling missing a meal compared to a slightly larger 'juvie' snake. A lot of it is convenience stuff for me, but oh well... my life could use a bit more convenience. That's just me though. Slitting takes about two seconds, and I really don't see any harm as long as it's not done for the rest of the snakes life.