Do me a favor...

[Serpwidgets]

Normal Diffused vs. Bloodred, Bad for Bloodred Projects vs. Good for Bloodred Projects. I really do not want to produce normals with or without the diffused pattern from my Bloodred Projects. $25 vs. $65

Ok, so considering that my diffused corn is one that you (and I) would consider "bad for bloodred projects," I would assume that you would consider this snake a "diffused normal" rather than a bloodred.

This snake is the only source of the diffused gene and "bloodred" heritage for the avalanches and granites we hatched. Given that she does not even seem to carry the "genes necessary to be called a blood" it would be doubtful that any of her F2 grandchildren (from her crossed to an amel) would either, and so the anerys and snows that came from this line would be very unlikely to qualify as "morph + blood" even under your definition of "if it is good for bloodred projects."

 

[ecreipeoj]

Bloodred/Blood line, diffused pattern

Ok, so considering that my diffused corn is one that you (and I) would consider "bad for bloodred projects," I would assume that you would consider this snake a "diffused normal" rather than a bloodred.

I think it is time that I stop teasing you about your Blood. In all actuality, I would classify her as a Miami Blood and I think she has the potential to produce some very interesting Blood Morphs. She looks dark red to me. The photo that I attached is what I would have in mind for a Normal Corn with a diffused pattern.

I just read though some of the latest posts and would like to briefly (Joke!) touch base on some that stuck in my mind. The Miami and Okeetee names are not no-nonnsense names, they are locality names. The names may not give an image of what they look like, but once the locality reference is taught to new people and the image of what they look like is seen for a reference, it is immediately accepted.

I still object to the line of questioning about Candy Canes and Bloods being the same type of line breeding and therefore a convincing argument for Diffused. I think if you used Miami Phase instead you would get more mileage out of it. I still feel that there is more to a Bloodred than to a Miami Phase or Okeetee Phase Corn Snake that are selectively bred for that phase, other than the pattern. Miami and Okeetee Phase do have some strong pattern traits, but are from “Normal“ genes and not recessive or co-dominant genes.

Obviously we will see Miami Bloods, (Mary for example) and Okeetee Bloods. I would expect some of them to have even more influence from the Miami or Okeetee line, but they will not look like Normal Miami/Okeetee Phase Corns. They will basically be combinations of strong normal pattern and color genes, with co-dominant mutant genes. I am beginning to think that the co-dominant pattern trait of Bloods (diffused appearance) is linked to a co-dominant color trait, much like Stripes and Motleys are linked to a recessive mild hypo effect trait. I have no proof of this obviously except just about all corns from the Blood line are a darker shade of red, and there is something else about them that I can not really describe. It is the same kind of proof that we have that Motleys and Striped are lighter. They just all are.

I think a Snow Miami, Snow Candy Cane or Anery Candy Cane are all the same thing and not a convincing argument for Diffused, but the opposite. They are basically “line” bred and will be expected to produce Candy Canes in the Amel phenotype. This goes along with your terminology thread in a way, but they are not out-crossed to a different line they are line bred, which we call “selectively bred for“, but most other animal hobbies call this line breeding.. A Snow from a Miami Line that was produced from a candy cane line of amels, will most likely, and will be expected to produce Candy Canes in the amel phenotype and Miami in the in the normal phenotype. The same is true of the Okeetee line. A Snow Okeetee, from an Okeetee Line, will most likely, and be expected to produce Amel Okeetees in the amel phenotype, and Okeetees in the Normal phenotype.

A Snow Blood from a Blood line will be expected to produce an Amel Blood in the Amel phenotype and a Blood in the normal phenotype. It may be difficult to tell a Snow Miami from a generic Snow by appearance alone, but I believe there is a lot of importance to the fact that the Snow Miami is from that line and the expected offspring that will be produced will be Miami Phase, and Candy Cane due to the line breeding in that line.

It is very important that a Snow Blood is from Blood parents and that Bloods will be expected to be produced in the Normal phenotype. It is actually EXTREMELY important and I would say that is what makes a Snow Blood a Blood is its line breeding. There is no Diffused Line, there is a Blood line that goes back 20 years and they are line bred. There is a recently discovered co-dominant trait in bloods that is best described as diffused in appearance. I do not feel that due to a mutant gene or combo of genes like Snow that takes away the red pigment from the Blood line is any reason to abandon the name for that line.

I am totally for Trade Names for Corns. They all have one whether or not the non Trade Name people think they do or not. An Anery Striped Corn Snake is a trade name. I have seen things like Striped Butters, listed as supporting the genetic listing of names. Apparently, they forgot that Butter is a Trade name. They use it so much it seems like a genetic name but it is not. I like Avalanche Corns for Snow Bloods very much, but the genetic listing should be Avalanche Corns (Anerythristic A, Amelanistic and Blood) They are from the Blood line and have a diffused looking pattern. They are not from the Diffuse line. It does not exist.

There is a lot of variation in all “Lines” of Corns. The Bloodred/Blood line is no different. Some have extreme diffused pattern and white bellies and others look almost normal and have quite a bit of pattern on their bellies. These low quality Bloods are still from the Blood Line and I do not see any reason for them to be put into a secondary new line we call “Diffused“. I definitely do not think that a perfect Blood, that happens to be an Anery, Anery B, Caramel, or Lavender mutant, should be put into a line called “Diffused” because they are not red like the Normal Blood phenotype parents they came from.

Blood or Bloodred does give someone the image in their minds that they will be seeing a red snake, but Blood/Bloodred has more meaning than that. It is the name of a Line of Corns just like Okeetee or Miami. Perhaps they are no-nonsense type names, but they are the names of a Line of Corns that have been line bred for many generations.

I am very much against changing the name of the Line of Corns we call Bloodred, just because we have created Lavender Bloods from them that are not red due to a mutant gene. Diffused is a great descriptive word that describes the co-dominant pattern on Bloods, but I HATE, HATE, HATE it being used as a name for anything, just like you HATE, HATE, HATED, “Blue Ice Corns”. I think Bloods are in a class all their own. Perhaps it is because I have been discussing and working with co-dominate genes in the Boa World, but I thing Bloods are co-dominant in more ways than just pattern and stand alone in our Corn World. I do not want to see them dissected up.

 

[Serpwidgets]

The Miami and Okeetee names are not no-nonnsense names, they are locality names.

To the vast majority of people, including myself, they are nonsense names. It means what someone told me it means, it is completely impossible for me to have a preconceived picture of what to expect. I have never been to Miami or to the Carolinas, let alone gone herping there.

I still feel that there is more to a Bloodred than to a Miami Phase or Okeetee Phase Corn Snake that are selectively bred for that phase, other than the pattern.

This is where we differ. Selective breeding is selective breeding. Whether it's easier or harder to get to the "final" product, or how much of the ideal look is retained in an outcross, has no bearing on anything. It has been shown, pretty clearly, that the pattern trait is independent of everything else we identify with the "bloodred" snakes. All "bloodred" snakes are expressing a mendelian codominant pattern-affecting trait. But not all snakes expressing that trait look anything like the line-bred "bloodred" ideal, or carry any of the additional "line-bred" qualities.

All amels come from the same common ancestor, but since they have been bred outward, and line-bred, in different directions, they have taken on several classes of looks, and each of them has been recignized as "different." They weren't different in the beginning, why are they different now? Why should all corns homozygous for a pattern mutant be any different?

I am beginning to think that the co-dominant pattern trait of Bloods (diffused appearance) is linked to a co-dominant color trait, much like Stripes and Motleys are linked to a recessive mild hypo effect trait. I have no proof of this obviously except just about all corns from the Blood line are a darker shade of red, and there is something else about them that I can not really describe. It is the same kind of proof that we have that Motleys and Striped are lighter. They just all are.

I also disagree here. (But neither of us has "the" answer so we are both doofuses to argue over it, LOL.) I think motleys and stripes are lighter because their pattern is changed. An additional "hypo gene" that tags along is not necessary to explain why motleys are lighter. The lightening is an integral part of what is happening to create the mutant pattern. Either way, if it is linked, it doesn't change anything... they breed the way they breed, which is, for all practical purposes, like a single-gene trait.

The same applies to the diffused gene and its effect on side-patterning. The selective breeding "for a specific ground color" and independently "for an intensity of pattern expression" are what determine whether the snake then becomes a uniform color or not. When you look at individuals that are sufficiently outcrossed and are "unrelated" to the original lines, this becomes fairly obvious.

A Snow Blood from a Blood line will be expected to produce an Amel Blood in the Amel phenotype and a Blood in the normal phenotype.

I would agree with you, if that were modified to "Snow Diffused, from bloodred lines" and if it's from a line where they were actually line bred. They aren't. Practically every specimen in captivity was outcrossed from the original line. Or so I have been told.

My snake, Mary, was the result of a pewter X Anery cross. The Pewter did not have two "bloodred" parents. He was the result of outcrossing. Meanwhile the anery obviously was not the result of line breeding. Mary was not the result of "line breeding" by any stretch of the imagination. She was the result of at least two outcrosses.

Mary was then crossed to a completely unrelated amelanistic male to produce yet another non-line-bred generation. Two of those siblings were crossed to produce the snows and anerys that I am saying are most definitely in no way, shape, or form "blood" anything. There hasn't been a "blood red" ancestor for at least 5 generations, and there has been no selection toward that end. It is pretty obvious that none of these snakes carry the elements of selective breeding that would be necessary to reproduce the classic "bloodred" snakes. If you were to assume the Pewter and Anery were as closely related to Bloodreds as possible, the best-case scenario, 3/4 of their ancestry has nothing at all to do with "bloodred" lines.

The only thing they have in common with any line-bred "blood red" cornsnakes is that they are expressing the same single-gene pattern trait. They should not be called "blood red" nor should any of their progeny, unless a serious line-breeding program is used to get the "line-bred" qualities back into them.

I like Avalanche Corns for Snow Bloods very much, but the genetic listing should be Avalanche Corns (Anerythristic A, Amelanistic and Blood) They are from the Blood line and have a diffused looking pattern. They are not from the Diffuse line. It does not exist.

As I demonstrated above, you may be able to trace their ancestry back to a distant "blood" ancestor, but these are definitely not "blood" by any stretch of the imagination. If you want to make a listing like that and include selective breeding, the accurate way to do it would be "Amel, Anery, Diffused, from Bloodred lines." Otherwise, again, it is like saying "Anery, Candycane."

These low quality Bloods are still from the Blood Line and I do not see any reason for them to be put into a secondary new line we call “Diffused“.

That's one of the problems we have. You see them as "low quality bloods." (You try not to phrase it that way but it's still the way you see them, hehe.) I don't think Candycanes are "low quality Reverse Okeetees," I think they are candycanes. I don't think a regular amelanistic corn is a "bad" something, it's just an amel. A normal is not a "bad okeetee" it's a normal.

But this is the problem... people have spent 20 years thinking that "bloodreds" (which includes everything that is expressing the diffused mutant pattern trait, or anything related to them) are supposed to all be red. The "red" has nothing to do with the pattern trait, so why judge all specimens expressing a pattern trait based on how red they are? This is like judging the "quality" of an amel based on the thickness of the borders. Had we done that, there would never be anything but reverse Okeetees... candycanes and sunglows would have all been culled for being "ugly." I think people are totally missing out by all trying to keep all "bloodreds" (and anything related to them) as red as possible. Their loss. :grin01:

I definitely do not think that a perfect Blood, that happens to be an Anery, Anery B, Caramel, or Lavender mutant, should be put into a line called “Diffused” because they are not red like the Normal Blood phenotype parents they came from.

Blood or Bloodred does give someone the image in their minds that they will be seeing a red snake, but Blood/Bloodred has more meaning than that. It is the name of a Line of Corns just like Okeetee or Miami. Perhaps they are no-nonsense type names, but they are the names of a Line of Corns that have been line bred for many generations.

For the snakes that are actually part of that line of corns, I agree. I always have said that blood red corns should be called "bloodred" corns.

But people want to take all value out of the name by applying it to anything and everything that has even 0.0001% of ancestry involved in the original line-bred bloodreds, no matter how it looks, no matter what has actually been selected for, or how many times it has been outcrossed.

I can't imagine trying to have this conversation with Okeetee buffs... they know that their snakes are special and want to protect that by not having people call everything under the sun "okeetee." If Bloodreds had been discovered on an island and they all looked at least somewhat that way, you can bet that any snake with any blood coming from somewhere else, would be considered "impure" and "outcross" and people would be arguing that calling anything but pure specimens by the same name would ruin the whole thing.

I do find it amusing that I'm the one with the "crummy" specimen and I am arguing that "crummy" specimens should not be included as part of the "more valuable" morph class. Usually it's the other way around where people are trying to convince themselves (and others) that their average-looking normals really are "Okeetee" corns.

 

[ecreipeoj]

Discussing not arguing

This is where we differ. Selective breeding is selective breeding. Whether it's easier or harder to get to the "final" product, or how much of the ideal look is retained in an outcross, has no bearing on anything. It has been shown, pretty clearly, that the pattern trait is independent of everything else we identify with the "bloodred" snakes. All "bloodred" snakes are expressing a mendelian codominant pattern-affecting trait. But not all snakes expressing that trait look anything like the line-bred "bloodred" ideal, or carry any of the additional "line-bred" qualities.

I have never seen a Corn Snake with the diffused pattern that looks “Normal” in coloration. A Blood that I would consider an “Ideal” Blood, is at one end of the spectrum and a “Lower” Quality” Blood is on the other end, but they are not “Normal” in coloration, but redder.

Selective breeding of a co-dominant gene would greatly increase the odds and reduce the difficulty of getting to the desired result.

All amels come from the same common ancestor, but since they have been bred outward, and line-bred, in different directions, they have taken on several classes of looks, and each of them has been recignized as "different." They weren't different in the beginning, why are they different now? Why should all corns homozygous for a pattern mutant be any different?.

They are not. Look at how many different looks there are amongst the Normal Color Phase Motleys and Stripes, which are a recognized pattern and color trait. The black is very reduced in Motleys and Stripes and the common belief is that they do effect the color as well as the pattern. Variation is evident in every morph of Corn Snake, from Normal to “Hypo Lavender Caramel Bloods“. I WISH! The same is true in Bloods. Variation is expected in pattern and color traits.

I also disagree here. (But neither of us has "the" answer so we are both doofuses to argue over it, LOL.) I think motleys and stripes are lighter because their pattern is changed. An additional "hypo gene" that tags along is not necessary to explain why motleys are lighter. The lightening is an integral part of what is happening to create the mutant pattern. Either way, if it is linked, it doesn't change anything... they breed the way they breed, which is, for all practical purposes, like a single-gene trait.

The same applies to the diffused gene and its effect on side-patterning. The selective breeding "for a specific ground color" and independently "for an intensity of pattern expression" are what determine whether the snake then becomes a uniform color or not. When you look at individuals that are sufficiently outcrossed and are "unrelated" to the original lines, this becomes fairly obvious.

I do not think we are ARGUEING at all. We are merely expressing different ideas and possibilities of two different opinions and differing positions on a subject. I do not hear any screaming here.

My position on the Bloodred gene is that it is a single co-dominant gene that effects pattern and color, just like the recessive Motley and Striped genes, but we are talking about a co-dominant gene. Since there is “Normal” red coloration in Corns, this can be added to the Blood gene. It seems that the Blood gene is effecting the blotched coloration more than the ground color.

This is a completely off topic hypothesis, but what if the Caramel gene is co-dominant as well. We have been stuck on the recessive idea and approach to Corn Snake genetics so long that perhaps our eyes are closed. The Ultramel discovery is a perfect example. If the Caramel gene is co-dominant it would explain why most hets are yellow and it is so easy to get very yellow Caramels. Many of us have scoffed at the idea that the Caramel gene can be seen in Hets (myself included), but if it was co-dominant instead of recessive, well that would answer a lot of questions.

They road to a very yellow Caramel would be much easier with a co-dominant gene. We would automatically selectively breed for the normal yellow coloration as well. I have seen some “Normal” looking hatchlings that are het for Caramel, but what if they are just at the extreme end of the spectrum and since we are talking about a co-dominant gene to Normal, variation would be expected.

The Corn Snake that Rich Z found in the pet shop could have been Het for Caramel, and if it was co-dominant, then that is why he noticed that it was different than a Normal. Many offspring from this snake would have also stood out and when the genes were finally matched up he got a Caramel, which would be the equivalent of a “Super” in the co-dominant Boa World.

The ratio of expected offspring from recessive and co-dominant genes is the same, so it could be overlooked for many years. The only difference is the gene can be seen in the het form because it is co-dominant to normal. If this het form is not extreme it could easily be overlooked. We could probably draw a couple of other morphs into this possibility. Why couldn’t there be hypo genes that are recessive and some that are co-dominant. There are in the Boas World

My snake, Mary, was the result of a pewter X Anery cross. The Pewter did not have two "bloodred" parents. He was the result of out crossing. Meanwhile the anery obviously was not the result of line breeding. Mary was not the result of "line breeding" by any stretch of the imagination. She was the result of at least two outcrosses.

Then why is she so RED.

Mary was then crossed to a completely unrelated amelanistic male to produce yet another non-line-bred generation. Two of those siblings were crossed to produce the snows and anerys that I am saying are most definitely in no way, shape, or form "blood" anything. It is pretty obvious that none of these snakes carry the elements of selective breeding that would be necessary to reproduce the classic "bloodred" snakes. The only thing they have in common with any line-bred "blood red" cornsnakes is that they are expressing the same single-gene pattern trait. They should not be called "blood red" nor should any of their progeny, unless a serious line-breeding program is used to get the "line-bred" qualities back into them.

You can not judge your Snow Blood or Anery Bloods from this cross for their Blood qualities, until they are bred to a snake that produces a Normal Phase snake. The reason a Snow Blood or Anery Blood is not red is because they are homozygous for Anery.

Line breeding can apply to a gene that is co-dominant or recessive. Extremes at both ends can be achieved. Perhaps line breeding the Perfect Blood has to do with breeding for a background color that matches the genetic red color of the co-dominant Blood gene.

That's one of the problems we have. You see them as "low quality bloods." But this is the problem... people have spent 20 years thinking that "bloodreds" (which includes everything that is expressing the diffused mutant pattern trait, or anything related to them) are supposed to all be red. The "red" has nothing to do with the pattern trait, so why judge all specimens expressing a pattern trait based on how red they are?

Just because a low quality Blood is not solid red, does not mean that it is not redder than a Normal Corn. Line Breeding can certainly produce a solid red snake from a co-dominate gene that produces extra red pigment, but a low quality Blood is not proof that red coloration is not attached to the pattern gene in Bloods.

All Hets for Blood that I have ever seen are redder than a normal hatchling. This would be expected with a co-dominant gene to Normal. Het Blood X Het Blood would result in Bloods and poss het bloods, but the red color/pattern trait would be able to be picked out more often from possible hets than with a recessive gene because it would be co-dominant to normal in het form. The Blood trait would be quickly recovered in all outcrosses due to its co-dominance.

It is very possible for there to be a gene that causes snakes to be more red than their Normal Phase. One such example exist is boas and is called “Blood” Boas. How do you like that! What else could they be called? LOL The odd thing is that it is a recessive gene, since there are more co-dominant genes in Boas. It is very simple. Blood Boa X Normal = Normals het Blood. Normal Het Blood X SAME and the Blood Boas is recovered.

There are recessive and co-dominant genes in other snakes and many of them act in similar ways in the different species. There are mutant genes that effect the red pigment in snakes. I think they could be recessive or co-dominant. I do not think that your Blood Mary is normal in coloration. She is a Blood.

Photos by Tom Burke.

 

[Serpwidgets]

LOL, just because we aren't yelling at each other doesn't mean we're not arguing. That may be how many people react to disagreement, but that's their problem, not ours. I think this is a good "argument" to have, and I'm sure you and I will have many more of them in the future. :cheers:

Then why is she so RED.

She isn't.

I have never seen a Corn Snake with the diffused pattern that looks “Normal” in coloration. A Blood that I would consider an “Ideal” Blood, is at one end of the spectrum and a “Lower” Quality” Blood is on the other end, but they are not “Normal” in coloration, but redder.

I have seen diffused corns with normal coloration. I own one. She is the same coloration as this normal miami phase:

Same "not really red at all, but more like orange" saddle color, and same "no red to speak of" ground color. Most normals have more red on them than she does. I've hatched 3 clutches (>60 eggs) from 2 different fathers so far, and I can tell you that you would never pick her hatchlings out of a bag of normals.

Variation is expected in pattern and color traits.

Right, and when, through line-breeding, the amount of variation becomes so great that you have very different-looking animals all of the "same morph," they get split off into sub-groups. This is what happened with Amel and others...

Here is how normals got split up so far:

We at least have Okeetee, and Miami, and Keys sub-classes so far.

Amels, since they had gone in so many different directions, got split up too:

And Motleys are being taken in different directions:

Clint is breeding his for thick borders, some are bred for the single thin stripe, some are bred for the hurricane look.

Stripes are also splitting off into their own subgroups:

This is how you guys are wanting to classify things:

and this is how it would look if we classified amels this way:

The question is, now that corns expressing the diffused pattern trait are not all being line-bred in the same direction, why is it that they should not be recognized for what they actually are, and seen as different subgroups, too? The biggest obstacle is making people see that not everything expressing the pattern trait is a "subgroup" of bloodred, but the other way around.

My contention is that the "bloodred" morph (the ones that are really red and are totally awesome) is actually more suited as one of those special subgroups, like candycane, because it requires selective breeding in a specific direction in order to achieve and maintain that look. Whenever you outcross to average normals, you lose that look if you do not re-select in the right direction. ;-)

All Hets for Blood that I have ever seen are redder than a normal hatchling.

Yeah but your experience, like that of most people right now, is skewed by the fact that all you have ever seen are snakes that have been selectively bred for as much red as possible.

I've hatched hets from non-bloodred-looking (diffused) parents. They aren't "red," not even a little. :sidestep:

 

[gardenmum]

Well, it's been a little while since I have looked at this thread and it has grown a bit. I briefly skimmed some of it and need to take the time to read it all but I would like to ask you a question Chuck. That snake you have in the above post that you say is "diffused" but not blood because it doesn't look blood. I was wondering, what makes you call that snake a "diffused". I don't see anything in the looks of it that says either "diffused" or "blood". If you say that diffused is a pattern trait and use the description you use for that trait, then I don't see why you call this one diffused. I may have read this wrong and am confused about what I read, if so, you can correct me and I will apologize.

 

[Serpwidgets]

I was wondering, what makes you call that snake a "diffused".

She is homozygous for the autosomal Diffused pattern trait. Her genotype is D^D·D^D.

If you say that diffused is a pattern trait and use the description you use for that trait, then I don't see why you call this one diffused.

I can see quite clearly how her pattern is affected. Sitting her next to that Miami is like sitting a charcoal next to a pewter. If you cannot see it, then I honestly don't know what to tell you. :shrugs:

BTW, here is the description I use:

Three main effects on the pattern are observed. The belly is wiped clear of checkers. However, some black specks or freckles can appear. The head pattern is often stretched, and the top of the head can have a “skull” type pattern on it, or be stretched so far that there is no observable “pattern” on the head. The pattern on the side of the body can be practically normal, or almost completely blurred out.

I do not see how this description is not applicable to her.

 

[gardenmum]

My apology, on rereading the post above mine, I read it wrong. I thought you were saying that that particular snake was a "difused" but on rereading it I see that you are saying that the one you have is similar in looks to that one, which is a normal Miami.

OK....like I said, I apologize for misreading, my fault. So, which snake are you refering to that looks like the normal Miami, the one pictured three posts above that one?

 

[Serpwidgets]

Yep, the one above. They are very similar in coloration, especially their saddles, where they both have an almost identical "orangey" saddle color. When they are put together, they look to me like they could be clutchmates.

 

[ecreipeoj]

I am about "ARGUED" out on this one.LOL

I think that Serp is the only person in the world that wants to produce Bloods that are not RED. The major problem I see with your approach is you are trying to put the mutant Bloods into your non red “Diffuse” Normal Corn category. When a Blood het Lav X Blood Het Lav produces a Lavender Blood, they still have all of the characteristics of a Blood in a mutant form. The same is true with Granite Bloods (Anery Blood), Caramel Bloods (Doggy Poo Bloods), Butter Bloods, (Sulfur Bloods) and others. The red color has not been bred out of them at all, at least not like you are suggesting. It has only been taken out by a mutant gene in the homozygous form and when bred to something to produce the Normal Phase again, they are RED.

I have been wondering about Sunglows lately just like Caramels. I have been noticing that many of my Normals from my projects that produced Sunglows have very reduced black and/or no borders around the blotches which is the most important factor in a Sunglow. (No White). Are Sunglows a selectively bred for trait or a pattern trait? Could it be a pattern trait that is not particularly evident, so we have over looked it, much like a possible co-dominant color trait in Caramels and Bloods that is, well, variable due to being co-dominant.

I think the jury is still out on some of the subgroups of certain mutants like Sunglows, Patternless and Cubed. I am not completely sure that they are just a result of selective breeding. There may be other subtle mutant traits at work. I am not convinced yet that Bloods and Caramels are not a co-dominant mutant trait to Normal as well. I would not be surprised at all if we came across a co-dominant Black mutant trait to Normal as well and then we would have all of the main colors covered.

This year I bred Bloods into Lavenders, Lavas, and Snow Motleys. All of the F-1’s are a very similar color. They have a dark reddish cast to them, but came from three different crosses with different lines. The same is true with the Caramels. (Actually I used Butter Motleys) I bred them to Snow Motleys, and Lavas and each and every one of them have a yellow cast to them. I have Ultramels and Normals from Caramel lines and they are yellow. The same thing is reported from a vast amount of other breeders as well. Can selective breeding alone be responsible for such a strong tendency for Het Bloods to be red and Het Caramels to be yellow? They jury is still out in my Court.