Doozy

[Jynx]

Ok serp, CAV, joe, this ones for you (well and anyone else that wants to give it a shot) This year I bred a bubblegum snow to a candycane amel het anery. She laid a total of 22 viable eggs and 4 slugs, and 5 of them went bad before hatching. Out of the clutch, I hatched 7 snows, 8 anerys....and 2 normals?!?! Where the hell did these guys come from? I sat there scratching my brain forever trying to figure this out. I thought that maybe my screaming pink bubblegum is actually a coral snow, because I have no information about his history, but that shouldn't yield any normals...just het hypo. There should be a nice percentage of just amels in the clutch, at least half. The only thing I can come up with is that the amels in the clutch just happened to be the eggs that went bad and the slugs, but it just doesn't make sense to me. As far as I know, the female candycane has no other hets, but this is 4th time she's been bred, and every times its been to an anery bloodline (ghost het amel two years, anery het amel 1 year, snow 1 year). Oi...this is why I prefer to start off with young corns I knoe EVERYTHING about...bloodlines, behavior etc.

 

[Serpwidgets]

If I'm reading this correctly, the question is, "how did 10 non-amels come from a pair of amel parents?"

The possibilities I can think of are:

1- spontaneous reversion (extremely unlikely.)

2- one of them is homo for a non-allelic alternative form of amelanism while also being het for standard amelanism (also extremely unlikely.)

3- one of them was misidentified and is not actually amelanistic. (Also seems extremely unlikely.)

4- there was sperm retention: the anerys and normals are not from the same father. (Not unheard of.)

IMO the best guess is #4.

 

[Jynx]

that would be a very good first guess as well, but she has not been around any other male except the snow since last february. I agree that the amount of time a female corn can retain sperm is amazing, but I don't think that it can be retained THAT long.

 

[SnakeNutt]

Out of the clutch, I hatched 7 snows, 8 anerys....and 2 normals?!?! Where the hell did these guys come from? I sat there scratching my brain forever trying to figure this out.

Well, this is certainly a thread I'll follow to the end! You're right -- should have been NO normals in that bunch. Is there any way at all that the female was even briefly and accidentally exposed to another male? If not, it will sure be interesting to see those two normals mature a bit.

 

[Jynx]

Yes Charles, part of my question is why were there no amels produced, but more so, why were there NORMALS produced.

 

[Serpwidgets]

I'd have to say that (most likely) the normals were produced by a different father. Since the father is not homozygous for some other trait (motley, for example) there's no way to prove (short of a paternity test by gene sequencing) where those normals really came from.

The other question would be, "ignoring the anerys and normals, and only counting the 7 that presumably came from the candycane, why did an amel het anery throw the anery gene 7 out of 7 times?"

Luck of the draw. With all other things being equal, the odds of this happening would be 1 in 64. This isn't outlandish in itself. But it seems like a lot of clutches are "inexplicably" lopsided, indicating that the assumption "all other things are equal" isn't a good one to make.

One of the things that could "unequal-ify" the situation would be (as a purely hypothetical situation) if there's some gene on the same chromosome as the anery locus which causes sperm to be better/worse swimmers. If it happens to be linked, a particular het male could throw lopsided clutches. Or, it could just affect sperm viability in particular circumstances (temperature, pH, etc) and cause skewed results only in certain cases. In the long run, it would still average out to a large numebr of hets throwing 50/50 over a large number of offspring, but it could have a significant impact on individual cases.

(Or it could just have been luck of the draw in this case, hehe.)

 

[CornCrazy]

I want to mention that I have had 2 females produce viable clutches in the past even though it had been a year since they had been exposed to a male. It is possible for them to retain the sperm that long.

 

[SnakeNutt]

One of the things that could "unequal-ify" the situation would be (as a purely hypothetical situation) if there's some gene on the same chromosome as the anery locus which causes sperm to be better/worse swimmers.

Interesting speculation, Serp, and certainly not out of the question. In horses, it's known that male sperm travel faster and live shorter, while female sperm travel slower but live longer. I.e., if you want to increase your odds of getting a stud colt, you breed your mare right as/immediately after she ovulates. If you want to increase your odds of a filly, you breed the mare the day before she ovulates, in hopes that by the time the follicle releases the egg that the male sperm have mostly died off. Of course, you need an excellent vet who's very skilled with an ultrasound, and you have to know the typical ovulation history of your mare, but I think the technique may have worked for me last year (of course, it could have been luck, too).

Anyway, all I'm saying is that it COULD be possible that some color genes create stronger swimmers than others. REALLY interesting speculation, Serp! Thanks!

 

[SnakeNutt]

You're right -- should have been NO normals in that bunch. Is there any way at all that the female was even briefly and accidentally exposed to another male?

Don't know what I was thinking there -- a snow bred to an amel should not produce normals OR anerys. Should have been only snows and amels. I think Serp's first guess -- that somehow she was exposed to another male. Have you ever put her with another "female" who may have been mis-sexed and was actually a male? Happened to me just this year.

 

[Serpwidgets]

but more so, why were there NORMALS produced.

"how did 10 non-amels come from a pair of amel parents?"

Just to note: the (non-amel) normals in the clutch should be no more unexpected than (non-amel) anerys. That was why I phrased the question as I did so that it included the anerys.

I think there was one case in a zoo where a female retained sperm for 4 or more years.

(I'm assuming now that the female is the candycane het anery, right?) The other question would then be, "what's the genotype of the other male, and is he still in your possession?"

 

[Serpwidgets]

Interesting speculation, Serp, and certainly not out of the question. In horses, it's known that male sperm travel faster and live shorter, while female sperm travel slower but live longer. I.e., if you want to increase your odds of getting a stud colt, you breed your mare right as/immediately after she ovulates. If you want to increase your odds of a filly, you breed the mare the day before she ovulates, in hopes that by the time the follicle releases the egg that the male sperm have mostly died off.

Too bad we can't do this with corns. (The sperm are all Z, and the eggs are Z or W, so the egg determines the sex instead of the sperm.)

 

[SnakeNutt]

Too bad we can't do this with corns. (The sperm are all Z, and the eggs are Z or W, so the egg determines the sex instead of the sperm.)

Really?! Learn something new every day. Keep on teaching us, Serp! I love those nuggets of information you so graciously share.

Liz

 

[Jynx]

Yes I do still have the male and female in my possesion. I didn't think it was possible for a female to retain sperm that long, but still, it just doesn't make sense. She has been bred a total of 4 times. Every male she has been bred with has carried the anery and amel gene. (2005-snow (poss. coral snow), 2004-anery het amel, 2003 and 2002-ghost het amel) Now both the ghost male and the anery male were out of my past clutches so I knoe exactly what their history is. As a matter of fact, the anery het amel is the females brother. The only male whose history I don't know is the snow she was bred to this year. If she had retained sperm from previous breedings, she should still not have produced the normals. With every male I am still working with the same 2 genes: anery and amel. The ghost obvously produced hets for hypo, as will the male snow if he is indeed a coral snow, but that still doesn't exlpain normals ending up in the clutch.

She has not been in contact with any other snake (other than to breed, which is a controlled environment) but her mother on the trip to a vet 2 years ago.

 

[Serpwidgets]

Heh, yeah that changes things a bit if the only males she's ever been with are all homozygous for either amel or anery... then the normals are pretty odd.

All the possibilites I can think of (short of divine intervention or flying sperm) were already hit upon. (Including "Have you ever put her with another "female" who may have been mis-sexed and was actually a male?")

Short of sequencing, I haven't come up with a way to prove what actually happened. :shrugs:

 

[SnakeNutt]

I know! I know! Choose me!

I think I got this figured out -- Serp, correct me if I'm wrong. The clue is in the fact that the female was bred last year to an anery het amel. If she (amel het anery) retained sperm from that breeding, her odds are 25% snow, 25% amel het anery, 25% anery het amel, and 25% normals het anery and amel. That would be in an ideal world -- clearly, the odds skewed more toward anery this year. However, THAT would explain how you got anerys and normals this year. The snow's not the father -- last year's anery is.

 

[Serpwidgets]

LOL, duh, I keep thinking the snow is the female... yeah, the candycane can throw normals when bred to anything that's not homozygous for amel, which would include the ghost and the anery. :dunce:

 

[princess]

Interesting speculation, Serp, and certainly not out of the question. In horses, it's known that male sperm travel faster and live shorter, while female sperm travel slower but live longer.

That's because the x chromosome carrying spern is agtually heavier and the y chromosome carrying sperm is lighter and quicker. It's the same in humans and can to a minor extent be helpful in trying for a baby of one sex or the other.

 

[princess]

Too bad we can't do this with corns. (The sperm are all Z, and the eggs are Z or W, so the egg determines the sex instead of the sperm.)

What's W and Z? is it the same as as x and y but with different names?

It's a while ago that I last sat in biology!

 

[princess]

Sorry, I just re-read that!!! I geddit now! ...I want edit back!!!

 

[Jynx]

:headbang: I never thought that the anery could be the father. She did produce a few normals with him. Double duh... This makes sense, but there's still some doubt in my head. The anery male het amel that she was bred to last year is a 2002...barely breeding size at the time. She threw 18 good eggs and 8 slugs last year with him...by far her worst clutch ratio ever. Now if he wasn't as virile enough to fetilize a better ratio of eggs in that clutch, is it really likely that he would be able to produce enough to fertilize yet another clutch?