FF, TF or not?

[VickyChaiTea]

One thing I don't get about all this "let nature take it's course" thing is what about all the morphs that would die in the wild? Surely, amels/lavenders/blizzards would all get caught and killed in the wild. Where do you draw the line of what is natural enough and what isn't?

And it DOES benefit the snake if after being force fed or tube fed, it starts to eat on it's own.

 

[Skully23]

So the real discussion is over where the line ought to be drawn and what constitutes "enough suffering"?

In the scenarios I've faced, what would you have done? Hatchlings that won't eat of their own accord, despite trying all the tricks (including offering live pinkies). You're force-feeding them apparently successfully, but after three months of this they still aren't putting on weight or growing.

When do you decide to euthanase? Or do you just continue the force-feeding and let nature take its course? I'm just asking because I've never euthanased anything apart from one badly kinked hatchling that could physically never have swallowed food. I sometimes wish I'd had more courage than to watch non-feeders fade in front of me over weeks or months.

Basically I'm trying to say where the line should extend and not be taken.
I have taken this thread as if the snake does not come out "healthy, strong, and undeformed" then put it down for the lack of wanting to give it a chance.
Your scenario makes sense and yet I don't believe you should view every snake as not gaining any weight within "3 months"...maybe it takes longer? Maybe reading Kathy Love and taking time will give it a chance to finally feed on its own. (some pointed out Kathy) I read that many of these members have success with tube feeding.)

To be honest, I don't know where I would draw my line without being faced with the scenario. Like I mentioned before...the line is quickly drawn at these examples: guts hanging out, deformity beyond comfortablity, etc..
I have never killed an animal by choice or accident. I have almost hit a dog and two deer(with my truck) but managed to steer myself away safely...I'd hate to take the life of anything with no positive reason.

Nature will always take its course no matter how hard you try or how experienced you are.

 

[TandJ]

I say you put a time limit on it. If the snake doesn't start eating on it's own by year two, at least sporadically, then it should most likely be put down.

I have a time limit.., three monthes it doesn't eat, it gets eatten.. Don't really care what others feel is the right or wrong thing to do, this is what I do.. No force feeding, no tube feedings, no prolonged suffering. IMHO, what I do is what I can live with..

 

[Widget]

Man...go away for a few months and look what happens.

So standard disclaimers apply. I haven't breed my snakes, but I've breed lots of other things so I've had to make some tough choices on how far could I reasonably take things before saying enough is enough and doing what is right. That said.

I've dealt with several non/fussy eaters. 2 didn't make it. 1 (corn) died shortly after hatching, the 2nd (cal king) was a sporadic eater that once in a while would only take live, but would occasionally take a f/t, sometimes would refuse for weeks on end. After 6-8 months of stress for both of us he died. I have a 3rd that as a baby wouldn't touch a mouse if he was about to shed/was shedding/just shed. He's mostly outgrown it. If he doesn't eat that time, he gets to wait until his next feeding. Period.

I've tried tease feeding. All it seems to do is stress them out and make it harder to feed them next time. Same with force feeding. I would only consider tube feeding on an established snake that had some sort of illness that was temporary.

Food preference is partially genetic. It's part of the selection process. Those that prefer a given food source that is abundant in one area will not do as well if taken out of that environment and given something else. Some may adapt, others will die. The one's who adapt will produce babies that are more likely to choose the more abundant food source. We are breeding animals in a artificial environment. We can select for animals that do better in that environment. Corns have been breed in captivity for decades and as a result of that selection now have the reputation of being easy to care for eating machines.

So to sum up. I will offer f/t, live, leave them overnight, wash/brain/some scenting (I draw the line at lizard scenting. I see no reason to do in the lizard for this). No force feeding or tube feeding.

Breeding should be taken on with a goal in mind, not just because you have two animals of the appropriate gender. If you can't add/improve something to the breed. Don't do it. Breeding is a serious responsibility and should be treated as such.

Hmmm...I appear to have found a soap box. I think I'll get off it now, I'm afraid of heights.

Oh yeah, my snakes are living, breathing creatures with individual personalities. I've also seen deeper puddles.

Shannon

 

[Dreamsnake]

This is my second time reading this thread. I am a mother, but if I was not I'd still be appalled at the idea of equating a snake's life to a human's. I've know many mothers who've had to make the decision that determines the end of their newborns. I experienced the worst depression of my life after having my first son. If there was any complication that ended his life I would have killed myself. Yes, the postpartum depression and amnesia was that bad. A snake would not feel that was for her own young, she may even eat them for dinner.

Anyway...
I love animals, I am in school trying to get into a Vet Tech course, and I think that there is a purity in nature that human's may only strive to achieve. However, human's have perfected domestication from a long time ago. Captive bred corn snakes with all their fancy morphs and recessive hets are a part of human engineering just like any dog breed, house cat, race horse, and farm animal. Many of these animals have gone through massive changes in design over the centuries of human captivity. Several hundreds of dog and horse breeds have gone extinct as well, or were turned into another breed entirely. Culling is a part of captivity, it is not cruel if used as a method to strengthen the lines. I hope there will always be wild corn snakes in gardens everywhere and as long as we continue with breeding wonderful healthy snakes we will not take from the natural environment.

 

[El Jefe]

Just to be a stickler...

For those of you who think it is "survival of the fittest" or natural selection--it is not. Unless you have a very large tract of land an allow the snakes to breed with who they want, when they want, and eat whatever they want, you are not participating in natural selection. Some would argue even that scenario is a closed system that has been manipulated as only certain snakes make it into the area based on what humans put in the area. Nevertheless, everything we are doing in captivity is artificial selection. Now, if you want to artificially select those critters that do not eat mice to be out of the population, so be it. But it is NOT natural selection.

 

[Dreamsnake]

The first section of "On the Origin of Species" Darwin describes variation under domestication. As humans are a part of the ecosystem, so the animals we select from the wilderness to propagate or not is in term "natural." Human propagation and selection is systematically an evolution of a species. Would anery and amel corns exist in the wild? Possibly. Would they survive to reproduce and make snows? Unlikely.

Our genetic manipulation has caused the morphs of corns to develop. They exist because we let them. Keeping the stock strong is a part of the cycle. Some weak ones will exist, but it is the responsibility of the owner to know when to breed or not as it is the responsibility of the initial breeder to provide the best quality they can for the selection. Snakes are not dogs or cats who can be neutered and adopted out as "pet quality."

 

[Naagas]

I know that when dopamine production is lowered in lab mice, the mice will stop eating and breeding.

Dopamine is the neurotransmitter that makes us want to eat.

I would think that a snake that had no drive to eat would have a brain chemistry unbalance, where eating wasn't a pleasurable or desirable activity.

In mammals, neurotransmitter deficiencies are genetically linked- or caused by some physical deformation in the formation of the offspring that often comes with a host of other physical problems (think Down's Syndrome).

In a snake, there is no way to tell the difference between a brain chemistry mess-up and a physical condition that isn't able to be genetically passed on that may make life difficult but live-able.

If a snake doesn't eat, you have to wonder if maybe this is nature's way of making sure the snake doesn't survive to suffer even more, or breed young who will suffer.

How will you know if the snake that you force fed for two years is miserable and in pain constantly? Chances are if you can see one serious problem with your snake (its lack of desire to eat), then there are more problems that you can't perceive.

Euthanization may be the kindest fate for a non-feeder, despite any desire we have to see a snake live or die.

And as for humans, I don't think we should make suffering humans live either- but the law in the U.S. says otherwise. You aren't even allowed to end your own suffering. Having watched my great grandmother attempt to end her life in a nursing home, I can say that we don't deal with human suffering in a dignified manner either.

 

[El Jefe]

Would anery and amel corns exist in the wild? Possibly. Would they survive to reproduce and make snows? Unlikely.

Exactly. Therefore, is the process that results in a snow natural or artificial?

 

[Dreamsnake]

A snow corn is as natural as a bulldog.

The question is do we have a duty to the individual or the collection? Do we keep the gene pool healthy or allow poor material to flourish?

I know people who will not have children because there is a schizophrenic disorder within their family.

Autism runs in my family, but I chose the risk by having children.

Is the point of this thread about humane practices involving snakes, or the implications of genetic conditioning within Homo sapiens?

 

[cthulhu73]

Tim

I try to keep it simple here. They eat or they are eaten. I don't even like to tease feed. There is nothing more frustrating then a stubborn feeder. If I have to start leaving them in their feeding container overnight to eat. They are starting down the wrong path. I will mark them as something I don't want. After a few more times of this. I start looking at the kings. If you know what I mean. Call me mean and cruel. I call it culling. :shrugs:

Well done. I used a Large Savannah Monitor

 

[Naagas]

A snow corn is as natural as a bulldog.

The question is do we have a duty to the individual or the collection? Do we keep the gene pool healthy or allow poor material to flourish?

I know people who will not have children because there is a schizophrenic disorder within their family.

Autism runs in my family, but I chose the risk by having children.

Is the point of this thread about humane practices involving snakes, or the implications of genetic conditioning within Homo sapiens?

Well said.

 

[El Jefe]

Exactly. Therefore, is the process that results in a snow natural or artificial?

A snow corn is as natural as a bulldog.

My question was on the "process" that results in a snow corn in reference to artificial or natural selection. Natural selection does not necessarily refer to whether something is "natural" or not in the truest sense of the word. I will not argue that a snow corn is not natural as it is a snake and was created through natural means of serpentine reproduction. I will, however, assert that the process to create a snow corn is not natural selection and instead artificial selection.

 

[Dreamsnake]

I would think that a snow would be unlikely to be produced by nature, much like two wolves having a bulldog type pup in the litter. The multiple recessive snakes are produced by selective breeding contrived by the human element, or the accidental encounters of chance within a breeding room. Human kind has breed animals for thousands of years, now we have the technology to produce these reptiles all across the world. I think it is great that the same garden snakes I played with as a kid are in South Africa, Great Britain, Germany, and where ever else on this planet. I love the morphs that are produced as well as the normals and localities.

I will add that I saw my first snow in 1988 or 1989. I remember the price being well over $400. I now have a snow of my own for which I paid significantly less. If there is a snake that we want and can't afford we can wait until the supply is higher then the demand. Breeders set the price, consumers control the worth.

I'm taking a Bio class and lab this semester, so I'll be learning more about proteins and DNA strands and the like. If I am ever wrong in my statements and conjecture, I will refute them as I believe the spread of knowledge to be more important then opinion.

 

[Asbit]

My take on the whole FF or TF idea is this:

If can can visibly see a problem or deformity that I know will cause the snake thriving problems or pain in it's life, it is immediately culled. My reasons for this are:
1) I have taken on the responsibility of the care of these creatures, so I feel that I must make the "hard or not always pleasant" decisions in the best interest of the animal NOT based on my human emotions or moralities. I truly believe that letting my human emotions or moralities get in the way ultimately result in extended suffering for the creature in my care.
2)I am working towards breeding here in Saskatchewan (hopefully this spring) and I believe that if I am going to breed snakes (anything) that I will not keep the animal and sell it if I know it is genetically inferior.
3)I do not want to propagate weak genetic stock. I am working toward genetic goals why would I want to potentially delay that goal by attempting to keep inferior stock alive and then find out it is unable to produce or unable to produce viable stock for my project. As well I would like to be able to let people know that to the best of my knowledge, they are buying healthy strong snakes from me, whether or not they choose to breed them.

Now on to the application in relation to non or problem feeders.

I have 4 snakes that fit into this category in some way shape or form. These are the brief experiences and what my opinion is as a result.
1. Corn-foster snake, pet store-fed a couple of times, then regurged 4 times, stopped eating, improper set up at store, took it home fixed the set up and it ate right away, no problems, no regurges. (total time 5 mths)
2. Cal-King great, breeder reported it was a good eater (7 mths), great eater for 2 mths but weight kept bouncing up and down, started sporadically eating, 1 mth later quit eating, 4 mths later euthanized as he would try to eat and get food part way into his throat and then force it back out, he also stopped drinking. (total time 13 mths)
3. Rootbeer hatchling willingly fed once, developed kinks at vent and past, ended up trying FF and syringe feeding, progressively lost weight & muscle tone, then died, which was terrible to see happen to her. (total time 3 mths)
4. Corn hatchling, ate for breeder, sporadic here, then quit eating, syringe fed 3x, changed set up, she eats like a champ now. (total time 5 mths)

So in my experience 50% or less of those that have feeding problems are likely to survive and even at that, snake #4 has only been alive for 5 mths and who knows what the future will bring. Will she end up like #2, a great eater for a time and grow to a point and then seemingly have an internal issue which causes her to be unable to eat? I know that each time I FF, or syringe fed it was very stressful for the snake, we know that stress is not good for them. So for me, I will stick to trying every thing but Syringe feeding or FF, including moving them to another area to be isolated, from other snakes and activity, as that has been the thing that was successful with both #1 & #4.