Genetic improbability?!

[JFDery]

Hello, I've just hatched a clutch with a very unusual result.

The parent pair was composed of a normal corn x amel. 18 eggs were laid, one went bad and 16 big normal babies hatched out a few days ago. I slit open the last egg and let the snake come out by it self alomost two days later. The last snake is a small unhealthy looking amel. Multiple paternity very improbable, as well as clutch mixup. I took a few pics, but it doesn't seem like an animal that's going to live very long.

cheers.

 

[DaemoNox]

Its definatly not improbably, infact its quite probable that the normal is het amel. Its almost rarer these days to find a normal not het for anything.

 

[JFDery]

Yes I know, but 1 amel out of 17 hatchlings? That's what I find less probable, or at least unusual. I had no doubt that the normal had a chance of being het amel, that's actually why I placed her with that male. I was expecting something more in the area of 7 to 9 amel babies if she happened to be a het. Anyhow, just curious to know if this kind of unusual breakdown has happened to many of you on this forum.

cheers

 

[Menhir]

Absolutely sure no other male was in the game?

 

[dionythicus]

Murphy works in mysterious ways. LOL Just because there are hets involved doesn't always mean there will be many in a clutch. It's a toss of the dice.

 

[JFDery]

Murphy works in mysterious ways. LOL Just because there are hets involved doesn't always mean there will be many in a clutch. It's a toss of the dice.

Yup, I know were working with probabilities, just wondering if anybody else has had that kind of result.

Menhir, yes, I'm sure. One male amel, one female normal.

Anyway, probably nothing will happen with that snake, it doesn't look like it's gonna live very long.

 

[Susan]

It can happen. The number of eggs isn't as high, but I proved one of my females as het motley by only 1 hatchling. She was bred to a motley and 6 eggs hatched...5 normal and the 1 motley. Several years ago, I had similar results, but the other way. I bred an amel het butter with a butter and produced 8 butters and 1 amel. It all really boils down to the roll of the dice!

 

[Drizzt80]

Not any more improbable than having a clutch of 12 . . . males . . .

D80

 

[JFDery]

unusual result

No not improbable, but still unusual. My title is inadequate, but I can't change it. Should have been "unusual result", as I mention in the content of my post.

Thank you for your answer Susan. Were these complete clutches or were there some eggs that failed to hatch as well?

I know it can happen, but I'm curious to know how often it happens on a normal (or larger) clutch size, with perfect or near perfect hatch rate.

 

[janew]

I had 28 (out of 29 good eggs) hatch from an amel stripe x lavender pairing. Both parents were proven het anery. I got 11 normal and 17 anery offspring. Statistically, if you go by percentages over the whole clutch, I should've got 7 or 8 anery.

I also paired the same lavender male to a snow female, got 18 (out of 23 good eggs, had a problem with humidity during incubation) hatchlings, all of them were anery!

The thing to remember is that the statistical chance is per egg, so you just never know!

 

[Chris Olson]

I had an Amel het Charcoal X Amel het Charcoal pairing this year that produced 9 out of 17 Blizzards :bang: . It was a nice treat but I've had it happen the other way, too.

Chris

 

[Susan]

Thank you for your answer Susan. Were these complete clutches or were there some eggs that failed to hatch as well?

I know it can happen, but I'm curious to know how often it happens on a normal (or larger) clutch size, with perfect or near perfect hatch rate.

On this years normal and motley clutch, 3 eggs did go bad during incubation, and a few slugs were laid with the clutch. The amel and butter clutch was a 100% hatch. Many of my females lay smaller sized clutches. My average size is about 12 eggs/clutch.

 

[Menhir]

Not any more improbable than having a clutch of 12 . . . males . . .

That is wrong I think.
12 males is (0.5)^12 which is 0.024%.
Having excactly 1 Amel in 17 eggs is 0,012% - and thats again only half of the chance of getting 12 males only.

I would still like to know, whether all possibilities of sperm retention and other males can be.

 

[JFDery]

That is wrong I think.
12 males is (0.5)^12 which is 0.024%.
Having excactly 1 Amel in 17 eggs is 0,012% - and thats again only half of the chance of getting 12 males only.

I would still like to know, whether all possibilities of sperm retention and other males can be.

The female was a virgin, hatched from a pairing of Okeetee x Hypo "A" Okeetee, het amel. You can also rule out the multiple paternity option.

Thank you all for your comments

 

[Serpwidgets]

I got 17.1 out of a clutch of 17 eggs where all hatched (yes, there were twins in the clutch.)

And yes, I'm sure that the father was a male.

I had 28 (out of 29 good eggs) hatch from an amel stripe x lavender pairing. Both parents were proven het anery. I got 11 normal and 17 anery offspring. Statistically, if you go by percentages over the whole clutch, I should've got 7 or 8 anery.

I also paired the same lavender male to a snow female, got 18 (out of 23 good eggs, had a problem with humidity during incubation) hatchlings, all of them were anery!

The thing to remember is that the statistical chance is per egg, so you just never know!

Sounds like your lavender is not het for anery, it is homozygous anery.

 

[Menhir]

I got 17.1 out of a clutch of 17 eggs where all hatched (yes, there were twins in the clutch.)

And yes, I'm sure that the father was a male.

Of course it is possible, but I think that in most cases, the chances for having a different male (only for two minutes... ) in there are much higher than the odds for 1 in 17.

 

[Menhir]

Oh - and I forgot - if we start being picky, Serp, you as a mathematics geek, the gender case of 50/50 is visible in every clutch, therefore the chances to recognize the odd-gender clutches are much higher, than the ones being based on het. X hom pairings - wouldn't you agree? :grin01:

 

[Serpwidgets]

Oh - and I forgot - if we start being picky, Serp, you as a mathematics geek, the gender case of 50/50 is visible in every clutch, therefore the chances to recognize the odd-gender clutches are much higher, than the ones being based on het. X hom pairings - wouldn't you agree? :grin01:

Good point. But the odds are assumed to be under "equal conditions" which isn't always true.

If
(the amel gene in a particular snake == linked to something that causes the egg/sperm to have problems) || (other cause of inequality == True)
{
odds != 0.5;
}

:grin01:

 

[Kat]

I hatched out 14 or so from a snow het char mot X snow het char mot pairing. The result? All snows and snow mots.

I hatched out 19 hatchlings from a crimson X snow stripe pairing. The result? Mostly normals, some amels, 1 amel motley, and 2 anerys. How's that for fun odds for ya?

-Kat

 

[JFDery]

Of course it is possible, but I think that in most cases, the chances for having a different male (only for two minutes... ) in there are much higher than the odds for 1 in 17.

You're absolutely right, and it's precisely because I know that no other males was put with that female and that hatching success was near 100% of the original clutch number (including the bad egg), that I find the ratio unusual. Even 2 out of 18 would have been off as far as genetic previsions go. So, I know it's possible, just curious to know how often it happens.

Serp, maybe I have a new morph that is compatible with your twins, I'm also certain that the father of that clutch is a male!!!!!!!!!! What a coincidence!!

Cheers