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Hides vs just burrowing

S

Stewy84

New member
New here, and been learning alot. Wanted some opinions on weather it was really nessisary to have hides if you were to provide enough substrate for them to burrow? I had a kbs that all I gave her was a water bowl and 2 to 3 inches of aspen and she was good. I know corns are not kbs but if they burrow that would give them the comfort of something around them all the time, wouldn't it? Another reason I ask this is because I can't seam to find a real answer on where to check temps, bottom of tub, top to substrate. My opinion would be if your going to use hides it should be on top of substrate. If you are going to go off of the botton of the tub under the substrate and expect them to burrow to the heat then y not just let them burrow to hide? I used to breed Leo's for about 10 years and just used paper towels but then again they come from areas where there is vary little loose substrate. Just looking for some opinions, thanks
 
While the substrate (in my case aspen) if thick enough functions as a big hide, I think giving them variety of choice is important. At a minimum I'd provide warm and cool hides as well as clutter in the form of fake plants, tp tubes, and other decor, formal or homemade. I always provide a branch and vines as well, just in case they want to climb.

About temps, I take warm and cool side temps with probed thermometers below the aspen. I want to monitor the warmest and coldest spots. On top of the aspen I use a temp gun. There are certainly other ways to do it, but I like knowing the absolute temperature spread available to my snakes, especially on the warm side.

I get my probed thermometers in the aquarium section in eBay. I buy in bulk and always have spares on hand. I also get free international shipping. I have to wait, but it gets the price per unit way down.

I got my temp gun in eBay as well. You can also get them cheap on Amazon. I prefer the kind that uses AAA batteries since they are cheaper and more available than 9 volt batteries. I find that I use the temp gun not only for my snakes but anytime I need to take a temp in a particular spot.

P.S. Welcome to the forum :welcome:
 
A little more about my setup, I built a 12 tub rack with 16 quart tubs. Currently have 2 hides per tub, about 1.5 inches of aspen, thermostat taped to the 4" flexwatt belly heat, and I do have a temp gun. I have 6, about 6 month old corns coming from vms when the weather allows them to be shipped. I'm thinking that I may have the aspen to deep for them to get the right amount of heat unless they burrow, which is why I was wondering if hides would even be nessisary. Say 2 snakes will burrow but the other 4 won't where should I check/set the temp? I know the setup I have will work just can't quit get the tem setting checking thing figured out. Thanks
 
corn snakes are Climbers. They are one of the few species (most members of the rat snakes) that can actually climb a tree. Corn snakes like to explore as well. It's important to have places to hide, and things to climb on and explore. Also, Corn snakes like "Tight Fitting" Hides. When they curl up in something they like to feel secure and feel the sides of the Object touching them. Simply burrowing under aspen does not afford them the Climbing, the Exploring or the Tightness they like.
 
Karl, what would you say the hight of there Viv should be? I've not seen hight mentioned in any care sheets I've read. I just assumed that since it's popular to keep them in racks that hight was not really nessisary. Most the tubs I've read of people using don't really allow for them to climb much if any. I like the idea of having taller tubs sa at least 18 inches for adults to be able to climb around a foot high. Thanks
 
O and as far as temp goes I think I will set it at 85 at the bottom of the tub and let the snakes tell me where to go from there. With my Leo's I used to set the warm side at 90 and watch them if they all were in the cool side I would drop the temp 2 or 3 degrees and check them in a few hours to see where they were hanging out and a just according. No one knows what they want more than them, unless I'm missing something. Thanks again
 
I keep mine at 85 to 87 max on the glass under the aspen measured by the probed thermometer. I set the thermostat to whatever it takes to keep the temp what I need it to be.

You are right about them. You give the choices and let them decide where they want to be. No one knows what they want more than they do. However you do not need to adjust temps based on their position as you did with the Leo's.
 
Yeah dollysmom I never go off the thermostats setting, I always us my temp gun. As of now I'm at 85 on the bottom of the tub and 75 on top of the aspen. My house is 71, my rack is about 12 ft from my houses thermostat. I still wonder if I should take some of the aspen out to see if I can't get the temp of the aspen up a bit. Thanks
 
No they will burrow or hollow out the aspen in the warm hide as needed. My aspen is 2 inches thick and my snakes arrange it themselves as needed to the extent that I find pushed out the door of the hide. When I clean I end up rearranging it and they arrange it back to their tastes.
 
Stewy84 said:
A little more about my setup, I built a 12 tub rack with 16 quart tubs. Currently have 2 hides per tub, about 1.5 inches of aspen, thermostat taped to the 4" flexwatt belly heat, and I do have a temp gun. I have 6, about 6 month old corns coming from vms when the weather allows them to be shipped. I'm thinking that I may have the aspen to deep for them to get the right amount of heat unless they burrow, which is why I was wondering if hides would even be nessisary. Say 2 snakes will burrow but the other 4 won't where should I check/set the temp? I know the setup I have will work just can't quit get the tem setting checking thing figured out. Thanks
Click to expand...

I use 16 qt tubs in one of my racks. Using two hides is fine. Eventually your snakes will have a sense of security without the hides. 4 inch tape is the right size for belly heat. Even with the tape at full on there is no chance that your corn snakes will get belly burns. What can happen is over heating the trapped air in the tub. Keep in mind that temp guns measure temperature of objects like the plastic bottom or the aspen. The air temp in the tub can be higher. Its always best to use a probed thermometer. Guns are good for quick checks to make sure the tape is working and there is nothing way out of line. Somewhere between 1 and 2 inches of aspen is good. In a 16 qt tub there isn't going to be much of a heat gradient from front to back. You can make more holes on the cool side to release heat to help create a better gradient but as long as the air temp is 75 to 82 degrees from hot to cool side then they will be fine. 2 snakes might do what the other 4 don't do and that's normal behavior.
 
How do you go about using probes in a tub? My tubs have lids with latches (the only way she would let me get snakes in the first place) it would be difficult to do unless there was one per tub which is not out of the question but to me seams a little over kill. Especially when each tub is run off the same thermostat. I could just do one tub I guess. I put a bunch of holes in the tubs with my sotering iorn so don't think the air will get to hot. I'm kinda lost about air temp, I mean I know you can't have it be cold but isn't belly heat more important? Don't snakes generally like to lay on a rock in the sun or on roads? Anything that absorbs the radient heat from the sun? Thanks
 
Stewy84 said:
I always us my temp gun. As of now I'm at 85 on the bottom of the tub and 75 on top of the aspen. My house is 71, Thanks
Click to expand...

The info that states corn snakes require belly heat is in fact a myth. Ambient temps (air that is in contact with the snake's body) is the most important. I use only back heat in all my racks and have so for decades. Most commercial breeders heat rooms to around 82 degrees for corn snakes. Some use the outer walls of the room to cool one side of the tubs creating a small heat gradient.
It would be going to the extreme to use two probed thermometers in each tub. All my tubs have lids. It is the best way in preventing escapes. The wire from the thermometer will fit between the lid and tub.
If all your readings in each tub with your temp gun are about the same then I would place a pair of probed thermometers in a mid level tub to monitor the air temp gradient.

The temps you stated above look like you're in range for corn snakes.
Your setup appears good ! No worries :)
 
Thanks daddio, I got ziploc weatherguard tubs. There is no way a cord can go in between. She picked them in fear that the little ones wold escape out of others. If I could find one with a probe the size of my ranco thermostat it would almost fit through the holes I made with the sotering iorn. Not trying to argue but what makes ambient temp more important? I guess I'm a little lost on that one. I know one thing that sucks is that I really wanted to use back heat but didn't because I was worried that in a 70 degree house I would never get it warm enough. When I did Leo's I had 2 less kids and had a room I kept at 80 so never a problem. I always wanted some corns, had a couple when I was a kid but could never keep them from getting out so I gave up. Thanks for all the help everyone
 
I use sterilite tubs mainly. There is no give to the seal to allow the wire to pass through?
The probe is pretty small so you could just enlarge a couple of holes to pass the probe through.
Bottom verse's back heat has been hotly debated for years. I have posted info in the past on here that talks about what variables affect the use of back vs bottom. A local pet store was telling customers to attach the UTH to the side to prevent possible belly burns. I was doing show and tell expo's for them at the time and didn't want them to give false info. The debate of back vs bottom came up. The employee stated that if back heat works in a rack system then why won't it work with a tank. I had a tank with a UTH stuck on the side end that I got with a rescue snake. I set it up the same way that the store was recommending just to have hard facts to report to them. The outcome was predictable. Because the tank uses a screen top the heated air leaves the tank where as in a rack the heated air is trapped in the enclosed tubs. The back heat will heat up the trapped air closest to it in the tub. If you had used back heat it would've required using 11 inch flexwatt giving you about one square foot of heat surface verses 1/3 sq. ft. of heating area with 4 inch tape.
Corn snakes in the wild will on cool mornings find objects that absorb and hold heat from the sun to bask on. It's their way to get the necessary heat quickly then go hide from predators for day. This behavior was interpreted that they required belly heat to function and digest. The fact is all they require is the proper ambient temps to do so. Most think of ambient temps as room temps and that isn't so far off. Reading ambient temps is just more accurate as it is the room (or tubs/tanks/vivs) air that comes in contact with the snake.
At some point the recommendation of 75 +/- degrees for a cool side temp has become the norm and in small tubs like your using it is hard to get it lower while keeping a proper hot side temp but that's ok since 75 to 85 gradient in a tub is exceptable especially for hatchlings to yearlings. I prefer in a tank/viv setup to have a 68/72 cool side and a 84/86 hot side. My racks that have 31/41/66 qt. tubs have a better heat gradient just due to the fact of their size allows it. BTW we keep other species of snakes that require higher temps than corns in these racks with no issues.

ALL that being said, from what you already posted I think your good to go ! :)
 
Thanks daddio, my tubs have a double lip with a foam seal. Like I said that's what she wanted. I have about 40 sterilite tubs from my old Leo racks that I wanted to use but she said that they don't latch tight enough. I originally bought 15 ft of 11 inch flexwatt in plans of back heat, guess I'll use it for a hatchling rack if I ever decide to breed them. Thanks alot
 
Thanks Daddio! That makes a lot of sense. I only have screen top tanks so can only speak to that from experience.

Last year I had a vet tell me to put the heat pad on the back of the tank because of the burn danger. Frankly, I ignored her knowing from reading here that it just wouldn't work in my tanks. I do of course use thermostats. My new vet (same practice different doc) recommended no such thing.

In the winter partially I cover the screens, adjusting the open area to control temp and humidity. It works a charm.
 
I'll have to see what I can find for thermometers, is it really important to monitor all the tubs or just 1? And what about humidity? I'm afraid my water bowls are a little on the big side, I bought large cool crocks thinking from the dimensions that they would be a little big for now but wouldn't be long and would need that size anyway. Thanks ya all
 
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