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Hybrid question...(pic)

R

ratman

New member
I may have asked this question a couple yrs. ago, but I forget. Is the Forum opposed to pics of Great Plains ratsnakes or hybrids?

I personally see them as all part of the same species. I think there are many natural intergrades bt. the various subspecies. I know most posters think of them as hybrids, but I tend to see them as "crosses".

Here is a female, yearling, rootbeer corn from a normal, hypo corn and a Southern Great Plains ratsnake, from my collection...
865cross.HypoHet-f10805_TC-med.jpg

I would like to be able to post pics of my G.P. rats and Kisatchies in the future too, but won't if it's against the rules. Thanks... :wavey:

TC
 
howdy TC...no objections from me, post away...are you going to breed any of the F1's for hypo's?...Draybar had posted a nice pic of a "cinnamon", a hypo corn/emory...very subtle, a real looker....
 
Yes, I plan to cross the F1 with a hypo Miami corn to produce some cinnamons in a year or two. I also have a project in mind of crossing the hypo Miamis to my SGP rats. That will take a couple years just to produce the hets.

Draybar has some nice cinnamons. That's were I got some of my ideas. Mine will have an island flavor, however, with some interesting coloration, I hope. Thanks for asking and hope all is well, SB.

Terry
 
No objections for hybrids or crosses.

Though I will argue about the term crosses versus hybrids.

An emory rat x corn snake produces hybrid babies.

hy·brid Audio pronunciation of "hybrid" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hbrd)
n.

1. Genetics. The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races.

Elaphe Guttata Guttata x Elaphe Guttata Emoryi

I guess one can always argue either side of the issue, though.
 
Nice rootbeer ratman, I dig the emoryi bloodline, personally.

Hey Joe, You're right about arguing both sides of the issue. I've always thought it strange that you don't hear the H word more often in Florida King discussions.
Emoryi's and corns naturally intergrade the same way, but they take more heat for some reason. :shrugs:
 
Hey Terry

You know I sure won't mind seeing you post your pictures here.
I show my cinnamons and creams here quite often.
They have corn snake in them so as far as I'm concerned they aren't outside the scope of the cornsnake forum.
I have never had any negative feedback over these postings.
There have been a few postings from the people who are totally against hybrids or intergrades, which is to be expected, but Rich has never said anything to any of us who post pics and information about creams, cinnamons, rootbeers, kisatchees or even jungles.

So, Rich if you happen to see this tread, how about a little feedback.
It would be appreciated.
 
Joejr14 said:
Elaphe Guttata Guttata x Elaphe Guttata Emoryi

I guess one can always argue either side of the issue, though.
Click to expand...


Yep!

That was a pretty general definition, imo, too. Not all herpers adhere to it. I prefer to reserve the term 'hybrid' for crossing of species or genera. I understand the use of the term with corn snakes vs. GP rats though.

You did refer them to the same species. My taxonomic preference is, Pantherophis guttatus meahllmorum (for the Southern ssps) x P. g. guttatus, however. I'd add more, but this discussion should probably be in a different forum. Plus, I'm probably deeply in the minority here.

TC
 
Haven't seen you over here much, just thought I'd say welcome!

I'd say post away on the intergrades (or your preferred term). :D

If all else fails, anything goes in the chit chat forum.
 
ratman said:
Yep!

That was a pretty general definition, imo, too. Not all herpers adhere to it. I prefer to reserve the term 'hybrid' for crossing of species or genera. I understand the use of the term with corn snakes vs. GP rats though.

You did refer them to the same species. My taxonomic preference is, Pantherophis guttatus meahllmorum (for the Southern ssps) x P. g. guttatus, however. I'd add more, but this discussion should probably be in a different forum. Plus, I'm probably deeply in the minority here.

TC
Click to expand...

Corns fall under the following:

Genus: Elaphe
Species: Guttata
Sub-species: Guttata

At least I'm pretty sure of that. I'd still say that corn x emoryi is a hybrid. Whether or not you want to use P.g Guttata or E.g Guttata, same difference. I guess the question is whether or not sub-species x sub-species should be considered a hybrid.
 
mbdorfer said:
Nice rootbeer ratman, I dig the emoryi bloodline, personally.

Hey Joe, You're right about arguing both sides of the issue. I've always thought it strange that you don't hear the H word more often in Florida King discussions.
Emoryi's and corns naturally intergrade the same way, but they take more heat for some reason. :shrugs:
Click to expand...


Mike, you're right about the H word being used more with corns vs. GP rats. There has long been extreme controversy whether or not they are the same species. With kings, however, the various ssps are accepted as being much more closely related, imo. Also, the different kings have been kept apart more, I think. There's always been creamsicle corns, and other crosses are really taking hold now too. Many people even argue for one guttatus species with no ssps, and one getula species with no ssps. Thanks for the comments.

TC
 
hmm

The intergrade hybrid discussion has been hashed over a million times.
some of us will lean towards intergrade and some hybrid. At this time I could say there are legitimate arguments for either.
So, whatever we call them I think they fit in on this forum and until Rich says otherwise I will continue to showcase mine as I get new pics.
female cinnamon (hypo guttatus/emoryi)
She is only 25% emoryi. I hope to increase the amount of emoryi in the cinnamons I produce to at least 50%. This will take several breedings to accomplish but it should be interesting
9600shana24.jpg
 
Me too, you've all see my creamsicle, "chaos" before.
Here, he wants to come out and play with the pure corns, but he's afraid.
LOL
 
Thanks, Jimmy and Hurley....

...for the feedback.

Hope I didn't start too much controversy. Hurley, I do see them all as intergrades, man-made intergrades, thus the term 'crosses'. That's my explanation anyway.

Thanks for the welcomes....

TC
 
mbdorfer said:
If I'm not mistaken, the genus has been changed to pantherophis .
And the species to guttatus .
Click to expand...


Bah, by who? Some european scientists?

I'll stick to Elaphe.
 
More pics of crosses/GP rats...

Jimmy, that was an awesome photo of your cinnamon corns. Be sure to keep us posted on the progress of that project. :crazy02:

I feel like I owe ya'll some more pics. Here's another of our yearling, rootbeer female. She's growing like a weed...
865meahllxgutt-f30505b_TC-med.jpg

Her parents included a hypo corn and a Southern Great Plains ratsnake, P. g. meahllmorum. Here's a yearling female of that ssps....
865meahll.RS-f30505a_TC-med.jpg

Here's an example of a Western Great Plains ratsnake, P. g. emoryi. This is our adult female, CB, that we call a silver emory...
865emorysilver-01f30105b_tC-med.jpg

This is a closeup of the head of our male...
865emorysilver-01m30105c_TC-med.jpg


That's some idea of what we're working with anyway. Back to cleaning and feeding now..haha.

TC
 
LOL

We as Europeans stick to Elaphe too ;)

Panterophis guttatus...Elaphe guttata...still the same snake we're talking about so....why change a nice name when you like it :p

only a few taxonomic persons think it is needed...:S...whether they're European or American....it is an annoying discussion
 
This is the first time I've seen a rootbeer believe it or not, and Ratman, that first pic you posted is AWESOME! I usually don't care for the browns, but that snake is beautiful. Does anybody know who produces those regularly?
 
Thanks, Jen. I think hundreds, or even thousands, of rootbeers are produced every year. Draybar might get some when breeding his cinnamons. I'd ask him sometime.

I'm not breeding mine this year, but I'll tell you how the female got to look that way. Her mother was a very nice hypo corn, so she's het for hypo, which helps the color. Her father was a light colored snake from s. Texas. These s. TX rats are a study in browns. The combination of the two snakes made for an interesting brownish snake.

I like browns myself, as well as grays, a lot. My hypo Miamis have nice, light gray ground color, and their offspring with the rootbeer should make some interesting combinations, some cinnamons and some rootbeers. You'll probably hear about them next spring too. :)

Cheers....TC
 
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