It’s about time to run up the white flag.

[Joejr14]

If you just have snakes in a seperate room, what's the big deal? Is the city going to come and inspect your house to see if you've got any constrictors there?

I really don't think that I'd let a city ordinance get in the way of keeping my snakes. Having 200 snakes is one thing, but having 20 or so---I'm not sure that I see the big deal.

Do you have any sort of local herp club? Ever think about getting a lawyer?

 

[colinmcc]

^^^ Thats a fair point.

It's got to be a pretty tricky piece of law to enforce hasn't it?

I mean, it's not like you take the snake out for a walk and someone sees you with it then so how are they going to know who has what? Door to door inspections? Not likely is it?

It totally sucks in the first place but unless you have a seriously large amount of snakes, why not just ignore it?

Whats the penalty for failing to pay up?

 

[CrazyCorn]

I saw someone mention possible regulations on constrictors in FL earlier, let me clear that up. Florida FWC has a proposal from workshop meeting made by keepers of herps that will require a permit similar to the venomous permit now required. The species covered under this proposed law are: Retics, Burmese, Scrub pythons, Green Anacondas (Not yellow), and a few others I cannot think of at the moment as well as large monitors such as Niles. I am sorry to hear that something like this would happen to you but good luck, I would not give up just get more support from fellow keepers.

 

[Khaman]

Does your state have a grandfather provision to new laws? :shrugs:

It is not the state I have a problem with it is the city of Bowling Green, and no there is no grandfather clause.

At one point we were thinking of moving to Kentucky but I went online to look up regs for reptiles in all the states we were considering. Kentucky was removed from our list because we wouldn't be able to have my Green tree pythons.

Actually Meg there is no provision in Kentucky </FONT></ST1law that prohibits green trees there are quite a few people that have them. To be honest <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com /><st1:State><ST1<IMG class=inlineimg title=lace><font color=" /><st1:State><ST1<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>Kentucky </FONT></FONT></ST1</st1:State><FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>has some of the most lax of the herp laws at state level and I don't mind complying with the ones they have</FONT></FONT><O</O

If you just have snakes in a seperate room, what's the big deal? Is the city going to come and inspect your house to see if you've got any constrictors there? Do you have any sort of local herp club? Ever think about getting a lawyer?

Well I have stood up for what I thought was right and they know what I have and my name and I have a feeling come May 1st I will be the first stop to check to see if I have "exotics". Even then I could not hide them i also have to have a state inspection every year to get a propagation permit to breed and sell animals so if they check with the state they will know I still have the animals. No I did not think a lawyer would do me any good.

Whats the penalty for failing to pay up?

$500 per animal and the animals are confiscated and destroyed.

 

[Tyger9791]

i could understand it if they were trying to control introduced species and species that may be dangerous...but a corn snake? come on. they pose no threat to anyone...except rodents and lizards and frogs. and i dont understand why they would limit all constrictors.

personally, if i already owned the animals and none of the authorities knew, i would ignore the law. like Joe said, are they going to search door to door? doubtful.
now if i were a breeder, and the local govt knew it, then i'd worry.

and geez with all these new laws against animals coming out, my list of places to live is shrinking everyday...Tallahassee keeps looking better and better. i can have my snakes, my Amstaff dog, and my Central American turtles.

 

[scottrussell]

yeah there are lots of laws that no one can really enforce due to that they are all done in your house and no one sees it. i don't know how it is in more rural areas but in the more urban parts of the mid atlantic region like 90% of young people smoke pot all that time but how are police going to inforce that when most of the time the person is just sitting on their couch watching t.v...

 

[Tyger9791]

it's when you go out to buy or sell the stuff, thats when they get ya. this includes exotics, not just drugs...

ever been to a reptile expo or gun show? those places are crawling with the 5-0.
hey i work in law enforcement so i hear about all this stuff. i'm not a cop though. so dont worry i'm not out to bust anyone... :sidestep:
actually i think most laws are kinda ridiculous.

 

[Taceas]

I heard you talking about this in chat the other night, and I'm pretty upset about it as well.

But then over the weekend I had a funny idea. If they want to be vague on the wording of this rediculous ordinance, lets be vague on your interpretation of it.

By their meaning of "exotic", to me that means anything non-native to Kentucky. Correct? Corn snakes ARE native to Kentucky. While maybe not in any great numbers as elsewhere in the Southeastern US, they are there. Ergo I don't think they apply to the definition of "exotic".

By their meaning of "constrictor", to me that means any large boa or python capable of killing a small child. That's probably the same definition they had in mind. I hardly think of cornsnakes as constrictors in the grand scheme of things.

By that token, every non-venomous species within Kentucky would be a constrictor, even tiny little Brown snakes or Worm snakes. Oh no, they'll kill your finger!

And the fact that there are no venomous insects, but rather venomous arachnids should spell out quite clearly they don't know what the hell they're talking about and thus have no place passing an ordinance if they're not going to at least choose to look at what should be deemed ok and not ok. If they can't do it right, then they don't need to be doing it at all.

Any idea why this whole ordinance came into being in the first place? I mean, when I think of Bowling Green I think of small town Kentucky. Was there an incident involving herps that they wanted to pass a blanket law to ban them all?

It's really too bad that you can't move. But I understand some things just aren't in the cards. Is there any way you can rent a small place outside the city limits to house your snakes temporarily until you get this law abolished?

Like Terri said, I too would be willing to help you temporarily if need be. I'm not sure how far you are from Henderson, Ky, but I'm about 40min-1hr from there. My snake room is your snake room if you need it.

How many children are mauled or killed each year by dogs? Are they going to pass an ordinance to ban dogs within the city limits? Or at least make the cost to license one so high its an effective ban because no one can afford it?

Hmm...how about a mailing address so those of us can vent our frustrations to the city council? =P

 

[PtDnsr]

By their meaning of "exotic", to me that means anything non-native to Kentucky. Correct? Corn snakes ARE native to Kentucky. While maybe not in any great numbers as elsewhere in the Southeastern US, they are there. Ergo I don't think they apply to the definition of "exotic". . . . Hmm...how about a mailing address so those of us can vent our frustrations to the city council? =P

I second that meaning of "exotic". I bet half the politicians don't even realize that corns are native to Kentucky and therefore would be exempt (if that's the wording). I would have somewhere for your snakes to go but I would fight this as well. I'll gladly write if you need me to. I understand registrations for large boids and pythons as well as monitors but a cornsnake makes no sense at all.

~Katie

 

[dionythicus]

If you can post a copy of this law they are trying to pass, I would like to read their definitions of "exotic" and "constrictor". If you're feeding f/t, there's no constriction involved and I agree with the native species being exempt from "exotic". Why can't lawmakers use plain old grammar school English and make the wording so simple and to the point that any idiot can understand it? I guess it would put lawyers out of business....

There is a law in King County, WA that makes it illegal to sell an animal with the intent to feed it to another animal. This includes mice! There is a mouse breeder who has been taken to court twice by PETA on this assinine and old law. It was meant to stop dog fighting (they train dogs by using cats as bait), but PETA latched onto it to protest mouse consumption in the reptile industry. The mouse breeder has won both times in court, thank goodness.

There have to be loopholes in this new law. Let's take a look at it.

 

[Cycal]

If it is as poorly worded as you state, id recomend a lawyer asap before the law can be made offical.

 

[Khaman]

Thanks for the support everyone but I have been beat over the head with this and several previous drafts and have not found a loop hole yet that I can claim ignorance on.

“exotic or wild animal” shall mean any live monkey, non human primate, member of the feline species other than a domestic cat, member of the canine species other than domestic dog, raccoon, skunk, fox bear, leopard, panther, tiger lynx, or any other warm blooded animal that can normally be found in the wild, alligator, crocodile, cayman, sea mammal, venomous, or poisonous reptiles, amphibians, or insects, constrictor snakes, any other animal identified by Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife Resources as inherently dangerous to human health and safety, and any other animal that would require a standard of care and control greater than that is required for customary household pets sold by commercial pet shops or domestic farm animals. Wild animals do not include domestic dogs (excluding hybrids with wolves, coyotes, or jackals), domestic cats (excluding hybrids with ocelots, or margays), farm animals, rodents or any other hybrid animal that is part of a wild and captive bred species of common cage birds.

If you would like to write non- residents can send mail to the council at

Katie Schaller c/o
City of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com /><st1:City><FONT color=windowtext>Bowling Green</FONT></ST1<IMG class=inlineimg title=</st1:City>
<st1:Street><st1:address>1001 College Street</st1:address></st1:Street>
<ST1<st1:City>Bowling Green</st1:City>, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com /><st1:State><ST1<IMG class=inlineimg title=lace><font color=" /><st1:State><FONT color=windowtext>KY</FONT></st1:State><st1ostalCode><FONT color=windowtext>42102-0430</FONT></st1ostalCode></ST1<FONT face=Arial>

<O</FONT>

 

[colinmcc]

And they're including corns in this due them constricting mice?!?!?!?

Thats just plain nuts .... I can see why you're so pissed off.

They certainly don't fall into the 'dangerous to human health and safety' category.

If anything, there is probably more risk from toxoplasmosis from keeping domestic cats or a domestic dog having a bad day and turning round to take a chunk out of someone out of the blue.

So you can't own a corn snake but you could quite happily go out and buy a sniper rifle or a machine gun or something.

I don't get some of the laws in the USA .... Britain has some pretty stupid stuff but you guys have us beat hands down ......... :shrugs:

 

[abell82]

i could understand it if they were trying to control introduced species and species that may be dangerous...but a corn snake? come on. they pose no threat to anyone...except rodents and lizards and frogs. and i dont understand why they would limit all constrictors.

personally, if i already owned the animals and none of the authorities knew, i would ignore the law. like Joe said, are they going to search door to door? doubtful.
now if i were a breeder, and the local govt knew it, then i'd worry....

.

Ignoring the law is NOT an answer.

What happens when/if your corn gets a respitory infection? You can not take it to the vet as you have no permit! Not to mention one bust will give herpers a bad reputation. What then?

Anyone know what one of the worlds most dangerous and invasive species is? It's NOT a snake! It's the Bull frog. They eat EVERYTHING! Snakes, frogs, fish,worms it is all a meal to the bull frog. The bull frog was once spread by the DNR as the call is so attractive. Just something to think about.

The best defense is a good offense. Most of these laws are being passed by ignorant serpent fearing politicians who just have to "protect" people from themselves, (reptiles can carry samonella, remember),(or maybe their being paid by PETA under the table to save the lives of mice accross the nation? :grin01: ). Get involved in your local community, take your snakes to the local grade schools,if you can teach the kids, you may accidentally reach the parents. :shrugs: Sponsor a snake for your childs class pet, it does not take a lot to reach many! Just remember this maybe the first time these kids have seen a live snake, don't push the children and make sure the snake is docile. Just my opinion and $.02.

 

[Taceas]

Not ALL of the states are as backwards as Kentucky. Sorry, had to throw that in there.

The reason we can own guns like you describe is our principles as a country. We reserve the right to own weapons to protect our country from another tyranny. Although it certainly doesn't seem to be helping as of late.

Not EVERYONE owns an automatic assault rifle. I don't, I don't see the point. But there are a lot of people who do professional target shooting with them and are honest law-abiding folks. It only takes a few bad apples to ruin the bushel as we all know.

Your no-gun laws in the UK sure haven't stopped the bad people from owning guns. Laws only limit the law abiding folks, most times. Anyway...this is a whole other topic for another time.

This particular law is made by those in power who are obviously ignorant of non-traditional pets. I think if they want to have an ordinance against constrictors, let them make a size limit. 6 feet plus and you are required to register it. Or at the very least let it be for Boas and Pythons, at least that's clearly spelled out.

I think Cycal's proposal of getting a lawyer to help might be a worthy ambition. I know a few of us might be able to help cover the costs. Don't just sit back and let them beat you over the head with their nonsense. If people don't fight for their rights, the government will take them all away.

I personally do not think cornsnakes apply to this ordinance. I think with the fact of them being a native species to Kentucky means they should regulated by the DNR, and not by local government entities. Bring in a corn snake to your next council meeting, display it and ask if its going to kill anyone's child.

I forgot earlier about the vemonous insects. Are they going to require bee keepers to register ALL of their honeybees? You just cannot pass blanket ordinances without thinking things through. Why not pass laws that actually make a difference instead?

Thanks for the address, they're going to be getting a letter from me this week. Stay strong, we got your back. =)

 

[crazyforcorns]

" Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife Resources as inherently dangerous to human health and safety, "

F&WR find corn snakes inherently dangerous to human health and safety? On what grounds?

Kathy

 

[PtDnsr]

I forgot earlier about the vemonous insects. Are they going to require bee keepers to register ALL of their honeybees? You just cannot pass blanket ordinances without thinking things through. Why not pass laws that actually make a difference instead?

:grin01: Sorry - I found that amusing. Don't forget about that pet spider your kid found in the house and kept in a jar - it could hurt someone.

I think if they want to have an ordinance against constrictors, let them make a size limit. 6 feet plus and you are required to register it. Or at the very least let it be for Boas and Pythons, at least that's clearly spelled out.

I don't agree necessarily. I think ball pythons are some of the most harmless snakes out there - 99% of them curl in a ball when theyre scared - not strike. I wouldn't mind a permit system but $100 for every animal is a lot. I agree that spelling something out is necessary but I think that it should be looked at very carefully.

~Katie

 

[Taceas]

Well seeing as how my own Ball Python is barely 3ft long and stays curled up in his hide all day long, I doubt that he's going to go out of his way to harm someone. I was mainly meaning like Burms and Retics, when I said that.

I understand some species are generally mild mannered, and therefore really don't qualify. And some individual animals, while belonging to a group that can be associated with being nippy, are complete dolls themselves.

But to the ignorant layperson, a big ole 6' BCI sitting on your deck railing looks like it could eat a horse. I've seen how some people around here flip out when they see Black Rat snakes...by the way they talked you'd swear it was an Anaconda.

$100/yr/animal is too much to ask, imho. For that price all they're going to manage to do is push the hobby underground, rather than responsible folks being public about owning such animals. I wouldn't mind paying $100/yr for a breeder license that allows me to own more than 4 of the animals on their stupid list. But per animal is ludicrous.

Around here, to license a dog with the city is only $15 or so, but that was a one-time thing if I recollect. They don't need $100 per year, a one time licensing fee per reptiles is all that's needed. It tells them who owns what and in what quantity, which is all they "need" to know anyway.

 

[Khaman]

I agree with all points and I would still be required to keep up a $100/yr permit with KDFW to breed and sell non-morphed "native" species (they consider a cal king native since we have kings in KY). I had contacted a lawyer when this all started in Aug 04 his answer was "For a lot of money you can fight it and maybe lose or spend a lot of money and not".

As I told my wife last night I fought the good fight for what I believe in but in the end when they took the kennel laws out of the ordnance I lost my support no one cared about snakes. There are a few other "Exotic" keepers in town that kept quiet and did not stand up so they could stay hidden and I can't blame them I probably should have too but I stood up for my rights and others in town have no one else to blame when their animals get confiscated and/or they get fined they did nothing. <O

I accepted the defeat night before last when I started making a list of animals to sell. I am done fighting 18 months of researching laws from anywhere that Google could find to present to a group of close minded individuals has wore on me mentally, physically and emotionally. Late last year Kentucky</FONT></ST1 passed a law prohibiting the possession of many animals among them were lions, tigers, and cougars. My other passion was volunteering at a non profit shelter near by that the “owner” had dreams of making into a large sanctuary, those washed down the drain with that law. The preexisting animals can stay but we could bring no more in to the state. In a few short months two of my greatest passions were destroyed by close minded bureaucrats.

<OI will always love this hobby and will continue to support it but I am moving on, maybe I will take up bird watching until they are banned as well. I will be on here probably as much as I am now and will stay a contributor because I feel it right for me. I have farmed out some of my projects to others to continue so that has helped my frame of mind as well. <O

 

[Lennycorn]

I think it says…. If K.D.F.W. find an animal dangerous, so... I know you tired,
but if you can talk some reason to these guy and also talk to a lawyer, maybe...
It's worth one more shot.