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last question, i promise!!
- Thread starter maegann
- Start date
Fenderplayer108
MC Reptiles
..maegann said:
Well that one is an obvious. If she is larger then normal, she either is producing more pups, or just larger ones.
.
Ryan,
Lifesong Photos
Fenderplayer108
MC Reptiles
.maegann said:well, she has been eating all accept one for some odd reason. so, she probably will eat this last one too, i have no idea why
How many litters has she had? Are you touching the pups after they are born?
.
Ryan,
Lifesong Photos
Fenderplayer108
MC Reptiles
.Flagg said:
Touching them can cause them to eat the litter. Unless of course your mice are used to your scent.
.
Ryan,
Lifesong Photos
Fenderplayer108
MC Reptiles
maegann said:
Has she had any litters that she didn't eat? What I have noticed it takes a litter or two before they figure out how to do it properly.
.
Ryan,
lifesong photos
Fenderplayer108
MC Reptiles
maegann said:
How are there temp's? Are they steady? What about substrate? Do you have enough things for them to hide it? Ect, sounds like stress like said before.
.
Ryan,
Lifesong Photos
Well I've never had rats or mice eat a litter from touching them, even immediately after they are born. Many others here will agree with me, and have posted as such in other threads. These aren't hamsters.
It's usually caused by stress, and looking at the other posts about this particular pregnancy, I can understand if the mother might have been stressed out by all the attention before and during her birthing, Or it could be a nutritional issue if she doesn't have enough protein in her diet. Or maybe there was just something wrong with the pups.
It's usually caused by stress, and looking at the other posts about this particular pregnancy, I can understand if the mother might have been stressed out by all the attention before and during her birthing, Or it could be a nutritional issue if she doesn't have enough protein in her diet. Or maybe there was just something wrong with the pups.
Fenderplayer108
MC Reptiles
Flagg said:
Just saw that other thread. You seem to be a predator to her like stated in the other thread, so she probably felt like you were a threat.
.
Ryan,
Lifesong Photos
sfaoldguy
New member
Agreed... I have seen perfectly experienced mothers turn and kill their young for no other reason than the cage being disturbed within the first few days of birth. They were getting plenty of protein and calcium and it was the only litter in the cage. I have also noticed that they tend not to do this if they are used to human contact.Fenderplayer108 said:
sfaoldguy
New member
I do want to add that I am not saying that every time a mother kills their young, someone must have messed with them. It is just one of the causes. To say it doesn't happen because it hasn't ever happened to you isn't logical either. Plenty of people feed their snakes right on top of the bedding. It wouldn't be logical for them to argue that impaction doesn't happen from that behavior because it hasn't happened to them.
Here are some tips to help the original poster:
1) Pay attention to the mother's behavior. I have some mothers that don't mind the attention at all and others that get really stressed when handled after birth. As a general rule, don't mess with the young or even the cage except when necessary for food, water, etc. for the first few days after birth.
2) If she doesn't have a hide, get her one. Some mothers are fine having their pinkies in the open, but others have eaten their young immediately after birth if they didn't have one.
3) Ensure they are getting proper nutrition. Most of the lab blocks that I have looked at do not meet the minimum protein requirement for reproducing rats. Not even those sold for that purpose. The scientific study I read (for mice, rats may be less) recommended 18%. I grind dye free dog food and add it to what I feed my mice.
Hope that helps.
Here are some tips to help the original poster:
1) Pay attention to the mother's behavior. I have some mothers that don't mind the attention at all and others that get really stressed when handled after birth. As a general rule, don't mess with the young or even the cage except when necessary for food, water, etc. for the first few days after birth.
2) If she doesn't have a hide, get her one. Some mothers are fine having their pinkies in the open, but others have eaten their young immediately after birth if they didn't have one.
3) Ensure they are getting proper nutrition. Most of the lab blocks that I have looked at do not meet the minimum protein requirement for reproducing rats. Not even those sold for that purpose. The scientific study I read (for mice, rats may be less) recommended 18%. I grind dye free dog food and add it to what I feed my mice.
Hope that helps.
Taceas
USW = UB313
Based on your incessant posting on their every detail of life, I would find it very hard to believe you haven't messed with them in some small way at some point. So if she's eaten them, I would take that as a warning to steer clear of them.
While I have never had a rat nor a mouse to eat a litter just because I have messed with them or somehow disturbed the cage, that doesn't mean plenty of other people haven't been so fortunate. I don't handle any of my rats, period. I don't trust them, they don't trust me. Its a nice arrangement. They know the only time they're "handled" is for cage cleaning and when its whacking time, neither of which they particularly enjoy.
Personally speaking, if you only have one baby left I would feed it off, it would be a kinder fate. If she is even feeding it, if she doesn't have enough stimulation from nursing, her milk production will eventually cease and that single baby will most likely starve. That I have had to happen, and I never try to leave less than 5 babies if I can help it.
I have noticed if the female is a subordinate female, most times she's bullied to the point she eats them, or just doesn't care for them and they starve.
How many rats are in what sized cage? I have had mice to be somewhat crowded and eat litters for feeling overcrowded. I have never had it to happen with rats yet though, I don't keep them in colonies that are huge.
All in all I've found rats to be excellent mothers. They'll nurse anyone and anything that looks/smells like a baby. So for a mother rat to cannibalize her newborns, I think she must be off-kilter about something. Most of my mother rats won't even eat their stillborn babies. They bathe them for a day or so with the live babies before I find them, seemingly not noticing they're not alive.
Sad but true. Most breeder formulas are only 16%. But there are other, but albeit more expensive formulations out there with more.
Alternately most rodent enthusiasts I've spoken to don't recommend anything higher than 13% because some rodents will supposedly develop 'allergies' to the protein. While I don't know if its true, and haven't tested it out. I haven't noticed any difference in my mice fed 26% and those much less, aside from increased waste odor. Then again rodent enthusiasts don't breed NEAR as often as feeder breeders, maybe a litter once every few months.
Also I don't think even labs produce near the quantity that feeder breeders do. I don't think there is an all around economical formulation out there for our needs.
But 9 times out of 10, poor diet and dehydration are the main culprits behind newborns being cannibalized. From my own experience anyway. When a nutritionally compromised mother is forced to give birth, in order for her and perhaps some of her young to live she must have strength, nutrition, and water. All of which is contained in those newborns, sick as it is.
I use LabDiet Formulab 5008 occasionally, which has a minimum protein content of 23.5%. But alas, its preserved with BHA, which I try to avoid. Mazuri is also preserved with BHA, and most of their formulations don't have over 16% protein.
Here recently I've been feeding Nutro Natural Choice Large Breed Adult, its 26% protein and is naturally preserved. So far my rodents have done beautifully on it.
Or there is Nutro Natural Choice Large Breed Senior that's 22%, or Nutro Natural Choice Large Breed Adult Weight Management that is 18%.
Although I do plan on putting them on one of the other two formulations. I don't think they NEED 26% protein, and the increased calcium and phosphorus in the other formula would probably be a great bonus as well.
They've just been getting what my dog eats, and it's been easy to fill up the mouse rack and rat cages with the same stuff. But now that my dog has been getting up there in age, and more pudgy, she could probably stand a different formulation as well, maybe a mixture of the two perhaps.
Although personally I wouldn't grind the food. Any ground food I've offered anything is ignored, and quickly soiled. You would have less waste to just put the dog food in a plastic bag and running a rolling pin over it once or twice to crush it in small chunks, or leaving it whole.
While I have never had a rat nor a mouse to eat a litter just because I have messed with them or somehow disturbed the cage, that doesn't mean plenty of other people haven't been so fortunate. I don't handle any of my rats, period. I don't trust them, they don't trust me. Its a nice arrangement. They know the only time they're "handled" is for cage cleaning and when its whacking time, neither of which they particularly enjoy.
Personally speaking, if you only have one baby left I would feed it off, it would be a kinder fate. If she is even feeding it, if she doesn't have enough stimulation from nursing, her milk production will eventually cease and that single baby will most likely starve. That I have had to happen, and I never try to leave less than 5 babies if I can help it.
I have noticed if the female is a subordinate female, most times she's bullied to the point she eats them, or just doesn't care for them and they starve.
How many rats are in what sized cage? I have had mice to be somewhat crowded and eat litters for feeling overcrowded. I have never had it to happen with rats yet though, I don't keep them in colonies that are huge.
All in all I've found rats to be excellent mothers. They'll nurse anyone and anything that looks/smells like a baby. So for a mother rat to cannibalize her newborns, I think she must be off-kilter about something. Most of my mother rats won't even eat their stillborn babies. They bathe them for a day or so with the live babies before I find them, seemingly not noticing they're not alive.
sfaoldguy said:
Sad but true. Most breeder formulas are only 16%. But there are other, but albeit more expensive formulations out there with more.
Alternately most rodent enthusiasts I've spoken to don't recommend anything higher than 13% because some rodents will supposedly develop 'allergies' to the protein. While I don't know if its true, and haven't tested it out. I haven't noticed any difference in my mice fed 26% and those much less, aside from increased waste odor. Then again rodent enthusiasts don't breed NEAR as often as feeder breeders, maybe a litter once every few months.
Also I don't think even labs produce near the quantity that feeder breeders do. I don't think there is an all around economical formulation out there for our needs.
But 9 times out of 10, poor diet and dehydration are the main culprits behind newborns being cannibalized. From my own experience anyway. When a nutritionally compromised mother is forced to give birth, in order for her and perhaps some of her young to live she must have strength, nutrition, and water. All of which is contained in those newborns, sick as it is.
I use LabDiet Formulab 5008 occasionally, which has a minimum protein content of 23.5%. But alas, its preserved with BHA, which I try to avoid. Mazuri is also preserved with BHA, and most of their formulations don't have over 16% protein.
Here recently I've been feeding Nutro Natural Choice Large Breed Adult, its 26% protein and is naturally preserved. So far my rodents have done beautifully on it.
Or there is Nutro Natural Choice Large Breed Senior that's 22%, or Nutro Natural Choice Large Breed Adult Weight Management that is 18%.
Although I do plan on putting them on one of the other two formulations. I don't think they NEED 26% protein, and the increased calcium and phosphorus in the other formula would probably be a great bonus as well.
They've just been getting what my dog eats, and it's been easy to fill up the mouse rack and rat cages with the same stuff. But now that my dog has been getting up there in age, and more pudgy, she could probably stand a different formulation as well, maybe a mixture of the two perhaps.
Although personally I wouldn't grind the food. Any ground food I've offered anything is ignored, and quickly soiled. You would have less waste to just put the dog food in a plastic bag and running a rolling pin over it once or twice to crush it in small chunks, or leaving it whole.
catsapp
New member
I've had a few problems with rats killing their newborns. Sometimes a mother just doesn't want a litter. I've had a few who have not had any problems, and have raised healthy offspring repeatedly, just pick a litter and kill all but a few, but be fine the next go round. It happens.
If she doesn't have a hide get her something, even if it is just a piece of cardboard that she can hide behind so she has some privacy and doesn't feel exposed or that her litter may be in danger. Rabbits are the worst I've had, but lots of animals will kill their litters to keep them safe from predators.
Empty coke boxes are cheap and easy, and you just throw it away and put the next piece in when it smells or gets completely shredded (some of my rats MUST build a nest and will throw a fit is they don't have what they need to build one, including reach through the bars and steal my notecards off my desk).
I usually put a mix of dog food and parrot food (it has all the treats they like in it including pumpkin and sunflower seeds) in the cage with pregnant females to give them something extra.
sorry you lost them, but try to take something away from the experience. good luck next time.
If she doesn't have a hide get her something, even if it is just a piece of cardboard that she can hide behind so she has some privacy and doesn't feel exposed or that her litter may be in danger. Rabbits are the worst I've had, but lots of animals will kill their litters to keep them safe from predators.
Empty coke boxes are cheap and easy, and you just throw it away and put the next piece in when it smells or gets completely shredded (some of my rats MUST build a nest and will throw a fit is they don't have what they need to build one, including reach through the bars and steal my notecards off my desk).
I usually put a mix of dog food and parrot food (it has all the treats they like in it including pumpkin and sunflower seeds) in the cage with pregnant females to give them something extra.
sorry you lost them, but try to take something away from the experience. good luck next time.