broken_20_2
New member
BeckyG said:
What exactly are you getting for x-mas....? I could be persuaded to change my mind :grin01:
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Lighting question???
- Thread starter anime&snakes4ever
- Start date
What exactly are you getting for x-mas....? I could be persuaded to change my mind :grin01:
BeckyG
Making it up as I go
Sorry guys. I said "MY" Christmas present, so unless you want some superwash wool, and a bunch of knitting needles, you'd better stick with agreeing with me. :grin01:
Oh, and as to the original question...It isn't about seeking heat and whether a snake has to burrow to find it. How much seeking would they have to do in a 36" X 12" tank anyway? It's about the safety of the snake. Yes, a corn snake will burrow under the substrate, thus coming into contact with the glass directly over the UTH. Yes, a snake will burn itself on an unregulated heating device. No, they do not always move off if they get too hot. I've seen plenty of pictures of burned snakes--enough to make me concerned for the welfare of mine. Therefore I maintain that you want to control the temp of the hottest point the snake can come into contact with. If you are using a UTH, that means the surface of the glass over the UTH, under the substrate.
Take chances with your snake if you want to. For me, it's not worth the risk.
Oh, and as to the original question...It isn't about seeking heat and whether a snake has to burrow to find it. How much seeking would they have to do in a 36" X 12" tank anyway? It's about the safety of the snake. Yes, a corn snake will burrow under the substrate, thus coming into contact with the glass directly over the UTH. Yes, a snake will burn itself on an unregulated heating device. No, they do not always move off if they get too hot. I've seen plenty of pictures of burned snakes--enough to make me concerned for the welfare of mine. Therefore I maintain that you want to control the temp of the hottest point the snake can come into contact with. If you are using a UTH, that means the surface of the glass over the UTH, under the substrate.
Take chances with your snake if you want to. For me, it's not worth the risk.
SkyChimp
New member
I don't take chances with my snake. That's the reason I don't use a UTH for my viv's sole source of heat, which is what you suggested to me.
I keep my snake in a 40 gallon breeder tank. I use about an inch of cypress substrate. Trial and error has taught me that my UTH will not get the ambient air temperature high enough, and will not create a hot enough basking area unless the UTH is regulated in such way that it makes the glass surface too hot. That's trouble if the snake goes under the substrate on top of the UTH. And I don't want it set so that the only basking area is below the substrate.
If you have it working for you and your snake, fine. But for me, it won't work, and I don't think it approximates a natural setting.
I keep my snake in a 40 gallon breeder tank. I use about an inch of cypress substrate. Trial and error has taught me that my UTH will not get the ambient air temperature high enough, and will not create a hot enough basking area unless the UTH is regulated in such way that it makes the glass surface too hot. That's trouble if the snake goes under the substrate on top of the UTH. And I don't want it set so that the only basking area is below the substrate.
If you have it working for you and your snake, fine. But for me, it won't work, and I don't think it approximates a natural setting.
SkyChimp
New member
broken_20_2 said:
I fully understand your position. And I think UTHs have their place. I'm not saying anything is wrong with using them. But I disagree with their use as a SOLE source of heat. My viv's primary, but not sole, source of heat is the lamp - however, for the most part, only the lamp is required. I use a 10' lamp with a 100w black light bulb that burns 24/7 maintaining the heat at in the hot end at about 87 degrees and the cool end at about 75. Surface substrate temp directly below the light is fully adequate. I also have an elevated section in the hot end that allows the snake to get closer to the heat source and provides a hot spot to bask. My snake is active and moves back and forth throughout the day. It's quite apparent he is adequately able to thermoregulate in my viv.
My set up seems to to provide very well the temperature requirements needed. The snake has radiant heat from overhead, and belly heat from either substrate or perch which are also heated from above. So I'm lost as to why its impossible to simulate a natural setting using a lamp. Obviously, it's quite possible. It may not be your, or BeckyG's preferred method, but its doesn't make it worng. And it's certainly not impossible.
SkyChimp
New member
BeckyG said:
Excuse me, but am I not entitled to an opinion? I happen to disagree with your suggestion that a UTH should be the sole source of heat in the original poster's viv. I happen to think you are wrong. I've respectfully stated why. Isn't that the way discourse is supposed to go? But you have as much as told me to shut up. You seem to be obsessed with getting people to agree with you. Maybe some, or even most do. I really don't care. But that in no way means I am wrong.
And with respect to "experience," experience teaches that there may be several soultions to the same problem. I've been catching, keeping, releasing, humanely removing from residences and businesses (for free and pay), and on one or two occassions supplying learning centers at parks with snakes native to Virginia for the better part of 30 years. I've done this with, among others, kings, rats, a black racer or two, earth snakes, rough greens (difficult by the way), watersnakes and the occasional cottonmouth.
I joined this forum because I've never kept a corn as a pet. And I am unfamiliar with the various morphs. I felt I could learn something. But I am not unfmiliar with snakes. So I felt I could offer something, too.
So, if you disagree with me, fine. I'd suggest that if you want to maintain a fan-base, which seems to be important to you, you do so respectfully.
BeckyG
Making it up as I go
Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. Fine. Have it. I am entitled to my opinion as well, but I seem to be the only one in this conversation who is not supposed to express it. I happen to think that YOU are wrong, and I have stated so in a respectful manner. My whole point from the very beginning is that you need to measure the hottest point your snake can come into contact with for the snake's safely. And you continue to twist my words into a "UTH's are baaaad" argument. I never stated that it is wrong to use a lamp. You imagined that, just like you imagined that I told you to shut up.
You stated that there are many solutions that work, but also repeatedly state that heat lamps are the ONLY thing that works. I find that to be contradictory and argumentative.
Frankly, I don't give a rat's derriere what your opinion is or even if you agree with me or not. What I take issue with is you telling new folks not to use a proven and effective method of heating.
Having a "fan base" isn't important to me. What is important to me is that accurate and correct information be given to those just entering the hobby.
If you want to use a lamp, that's fine, but the fact is that UTHs can be used successfully as a sole source of heat, and have been used successfully as the sole source of heat by most of the members of this forum.
I've said my piece, you can argue with the wall from here on out for all I care.
You stated that there are many solutions that work, but also repeatedly state that heat lamps are the ONLY thing that works. I find that to be contradictory and argumentative.
Frankly, I don't give a rat's derriere what your opinion is or even if you agree with me or not. What I take issue with is you telling new folks not to use a proven and effective method of heating.
Having a "fan base" isn't important to me. What is important to me is that accurate and correct information be given to those just entering the hobby.
If you want to use a lamp, that's fine, but the fact is that UTHs can be used successfully as a sole source of heat, and have been used successfully as the sole source of heat by most of the members of this forum.
I've said my piece, you can argue with the wall from here on out for all I care.
Lennycorn
Just see the truth
BeckyG said:
I have to agree!
And also, I have read post from this forum, people having more problems with heating their cages with lights than an UTH. So to recommend
light as a heat source to a newbie is not a good idea. As a owner gets more experience than fine but not a new owner.
SkyChimp
New member
BeckyG said:
I've just met you, and I already don't care for you. You are rude and condescending to people you don't know about a subject you think only you understand.
I've never said UTHs are bad. That's a fabrication. You've also stated that that I've continually told people they are wrong about using UTHs. Another fabrication. And I've NOT told people not to use a UTH. Yet another fabrication on your part.
What I did do is tell someone my opinion with respect to his specific situation - heating a 10 gallon tank. Perhaps you ought to read what I've written.
As I've stated, and which you have either missed, or refused to acknowledge, is that temperature of substrate is important. You said it wasn't. Ambient air temperature is important, too. I suppose that isn't important either?
Depending on the type and thickness of substrate material, it may be necessary to adjust a UTH to such degree that it is producing a glass temperature that is too high in order to get the substrate temperature and ambient air temperature to an acceptable level. That's bad news for a snake that tends to dive under substrate. Lights are better at raising ambient air temperature than UTHs and in some cases safer at raising substrate surface temperature than UTHs. They also provide a better basking area than UTHs used in the manner you suggested (the snake has to dive under the substrate to absorb its heat). Whether you care to acknowledge it, or want to rail about it since it isn't the way you want to do it, it is, nevertheless, correct.
In a 10 gallon tank, a light is sufficient. But if the poster wants to use ONLY a UTH as you've suggested, he's more than welcome to do so. I'd suggest that he monitor the surface substrate temperature and ambient air temperature as well and see how it does. If ONLY a UTH works, great. If it doesn't, he'll need to supplement his heat with a light, or he can change it over only to a light.
Now, BeckyG, you do as you wish. But you really ought to rethink your position that only your advice is useable and correct. You mentioned "experience" earlier. I have to call into question anyone's "experience" who cannot accept the fact that there can be multiple solutions to the same issue. And also who seems to fly into a tizzy when someone disagrees with her.
cohazard
corn snake noob!
Well this was a good read.... You're deffinitely both right.
So in a 10g for a juvie corn, let's say a UTH is used, and the temp reading for the probe placed on the glass that the UTH is attached to is 85.
In theory, a lamp could be used to increase the surface temp if it is say around 75? (on the warm side, which means it's low) With careful monitoring to make sure the below surface temp doesn't climb too high, which would give the corn a choice as to burrow and be warm, or stretch out on a branch etc.. to bask.
Do you think the corn would show preferance to one over the other?
From my research, they like borrowing under substrate to feel secure, even if they have hides. I could be wrong.
So in a 10g for a juvie corn, let's say a UTH is used, and the temp reading for the probe placed on the glass that the UTH is attached to is 85.
In theory, a lamp could be used to increase the surface temp if it is say around 75? (on the warm side, which means it's low) With careful monitoring to make sure the below surface temp doesn't climb too high, which would give the corn a choice as to burrow and be warm, or stretch out on a branch etc.. to bask.
Do you think the corn would show preferance to one over the other?
From my research, they like borrowing under substrate to feel secure, even if they have hides. I could be wrong.