Masque or super?

[67temp]

I'm not great with masque. Neither parent was really specifically labeled as masque.

Dame is a Miami het motley I suspect is a lower expression of masque.

Sire was sold to me as a honey bloodred poss het cinder and amel. I'm almost suspecting he is honey masque het cinder (proven) and diffused. I have a clutch mate of his that was labeled as "het bloodred".

Is this little one a high expression masque or low expression super masque?

I can get belly pics or ones of the parents if needed.

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[bushsnake]

I think the supers will have a plain belly but I'm not 100% sure on that. I don't mess with masque

 

[Shiari]

Super masque will have only the barest hints of belly checkers.

 

[67temp]

There are traces of checkers on the far edges of the belly. I've heard this is high expression of the masque split and that supers have the clear scales down the middle of the bare belly. Now I'm leaning towards the sire being a super.

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[Frank Pinello]

Looks like diffused w/o the masque gene. That was my thought before you posted the belly shot assuming the belly was plain. Now I’m more convinced.
Diffused with masque makes the diffused look more distinctive or more extreme.
That’s my opinion based on my Bloodred breedings I’ve done over many years.

 

[67temp]

Looks like diffused w/o the masque gene. That was my thought before you posted the belly shot assuming the belly was plain. Now I’m more convinced.
Diffused with masque makes the diffused look more distinctive or more extreme.
That’s my opinion based on my Bloodred breedings I’ve done over many years.

The dame isn't diffused or het for it that I know of plus the amount of lateral pattern doesn't seem to go with diffused.

Here is the sire and some of his belly. The thing that really confuses me is if he is also a super then shouldn't all of his babies have at least a spilt belly? I have some of his babies from 19&20 with full checkers.

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[Frank Pinello]

“That you know of” isn’t proven. I would test the dame next year with a diffused to see if you get about half diffused offspring to be sure. What do the other siblings look like?

The sire belly pattern does scream super masque more than diffused but they are really spread apart. I do have a orchid diffused and I don’t see that type of belly pattern. If he is super masque then yes all offspring would be het for masque with a phenotype of weekly masque look. However, at least my masque group the males seem to show much more masque traits than the females regardless of het or homo for it. And the masque seems to be very variable between individuals even within siblings with some showing more traits than others of the same sex.

Regarding the lateral pattern, I have had diffused corns with a
Lateral pattern that eventually blend into the red background color. I tend to whole sale them off as I’m trying to limit my diffused specimens the ones that are also super masque and Piedsideds.
It’s always a mystery which makes I fun. Enjoy!

 

[Frank Pinello]

“That you know of” isn’t proven. I would test the dame next year with a diffused to see if you get about half diffused offspring to be sure. What do the other siblings look like?

The sire belly pattern does scream super masque more than diffused but they are really spread apart. I do have a orchid diffused and I don’t see that type of belly pattern. If he is super masque then yes all offspring would be het for masque with a phenotype of weekly masque look. However, at least my masque group the males seem to show much more masque traits than the females regardless of het or homo for it. And the masque seems to be very variable between individuals even within siblings with some showing more traits than others of the same sex.

Regarding the lateral pattern, I have had diffused corns with a
Lateral pattern that eventually blend into the red background color. I tend to whole sale them off as I’m trying to limit my diffused specimens the ones that are also super masque and Piedsideds.
It’s always a mystery which makes I fun. Enjoy!

 

[67temp]

I will definitely be testing the dame and sire for diffused next year. I know he is het for it at least. The dame I know neither of her parents were visual diffused.

Here is the dame that I suspected was masque. This clutch was 50/50 for having plain belly or split checkers, no normal checkers.

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[67temp]

This is the belly of a female 2019 from the sire and a different dame. In theory she should have the masque split.

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[67temp]

This is a 2020 male from the sire and a 3rd dame. He has the plain belly with traces of checkers on the edge like the super but also has some clear areas on the belly scales.

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[Frank Pinello]

I’m looking and scratching my head to find a theory of your results.
Seems more testing if you want to figure it out.
I have had Carmel and Anery pop up in F2s where the grand parents and F1 parents didn’t show these phenotypes. But obviously they past on the het gene to the F2s.

 

[Frank Pinello]

I’m looking and scratching my head to find a theory of your results.
Seems more testing if you want to figure it out.
I have had Carmel and Anery pop up in F2s where the grand parents and F1 parents didn’t show these phenotypes. But obviously they past on the het gene to the F2s.