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New and hopefully better pics!

Kathy Love's Response

This is Kathy's email to me, very nice lady!

'As you probably know, there is a great debate on what makes an okeetee.
I personally only call a corn an okeetee if I know that it came from
okeetee parents, no matter what the snake looks like. But that's just
me. If it is an unusually pretty normal with unknown parentage, I would
call it a classic, and that is what I would call the one you sent the
photo of. But others may disagree with me; that is just my opinion

Kathy Love
www.Cornutopia.com
P. O. Box 516
Alva, Fl 33920'

Ill post other responses as I receive them.
 
Rob: (dial-up warning) . . .

Don't know why you had that email you wrote to [email protected] bounced back to you. AOL seems to be the butt of most Internet failure jokes so perhaps they're living up to that reputation. I've had AOL since 1996 and for the most part, they're pretty good. I do not have a spam blocker on my computer at all so all emails should come to me. If you sent it to [email protected] or [email protected], I'd understand a mail failure as I've had trouble with my mail going to those email addresses. I still receive an average of about 100 emails a day on [email protected] so please try that again.

Now, Okeetee or not Okeetee? In lieu of having a written standard in our industry, there'll always be debate over this or that snake satisfying the unwritten standard our industry has for that "type" of corn. I used to get upset when people posted pictures of average amel motleys and called them sunglow motleys. Technically a sunglow motley is just a selectively bred amel motley with rich colors and absence of white so it occurred to me that in the spirit of competition, I am now very glad people call most of the amel motleys sunglow motleys. This gives shoppers a chance to compare mine to theirs. Same with Okeetee, but first let's type about locality Okeetee Vs what we call Okeetee.

It's almost folly for anyone to expect to buy a genuine locality Okeetee. For the most part, all you have for authenticity is one person's word that BOTH parents of their line were captured within the "JASPER TRIANGLE". I call it this cuz it's almost becoming infamous that so many interesting looking snakes originate there. It's like there's a nuclear facility underground there and the radiation polution is causing mysterious aberrant snakes and recessive traits to pop up around there. I'm being silly, of course, but pointing out that people should question these stories more. Right now, the seller says, "I know mine are REAL Okeetees because I got one from Bob that got one from Sue that got hers from her cousin that knows a guy that was standing right next to David when he picked up one just before the game cops ran him off the Hunt property. Since there is no distinctive look to an Okeetee from the Hunt Club, anyone can say they have one. There's no way to challenge that claim. I'm sure nobody in this industry would EVER lie about such a thing just to make twice as much for a beautifully colored NORMAL corn by saying it's a true Okeetee locality animal. Ahum! Let's not be naive here. If you didn't personally catch it there, it's a potential fraud no matter how honorable the one that sold it to you is. It's like all the signs I see people carrying on the CNN news clips. "MICHAEL didn't do it!" How do they know? They weren't there. They're saying that Michael's reputation to them indicates he would NEVER do anything wrong. We can authenticate the Mona Lisa painting and likewise identify a fake by doing tests on them. Right now, there is no test to say a corn is really from the Hunt Club. Ask Ed Miner how they looked in the 70s. He sold me two that he personally found on the Club grounds. They had almost no black at all. I'd say they were closer to being hypo corns than Okeetees. Again, I don't think any of us should put too much stock in stories about authentic Okeetee locality animals unless we have proof. I'm very pleased that the purists in our indstry are working so hard to keep those animals from being genetically poluted. Personally, I will always call an Okeetee looking corn an OKEETEE regardless of its heritage. And I won't be saying "phase" after the name. In this hobby, Okeetee means a look. Not a genetic purity.

Okeetee "Standard"? I've been breeding this 'look' for a long time. I never did it by buying stock people told me were from the Jasper Triangle or the Hunt Club. To me, the perfect Okeetee has broad black margins. It has rich ground color and richly colored markings. The contrast between markings and ground colors should be as high contrasting as possible. Finally, a good Okeetee should be CLEAN. The perfect one being devoid of black or white freckling in ground or markings.

Just as it is with all standards, we strive for the perfect animal that satisfies all traits of the standard. Of course, they all fall short and the ones that are closest to the standard are the ones I promote. I don't say that every Okeetee I sell is a ten on the ten-scale. After all, is there a perfect specimen of any thing or animal out there in the hobby world? Hence, I'm fine with someone calling a beautiful corn they caught at a motel in Florida an Okeetee. As it is with most things, we all have our own opinions. If you try to sell it as an Okeetee, some will scoff at it as an imposter and not buy it. Others will consider it within the standard guidelines of an Okeetee and appreciate it or even buy it. Since not all corns were created equal, there will always be people out successfully marketing awesome examples of the morph and those that will keep promoting inferior ones. Perhaps this is good. Those that can't afford the good ones will be able to buy affordable Okeetees. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that is sometimes influenced by our wallets. Once you get that snake in your cage and grow to love it, who cares what it looks like? If you're wrong about this one and it's nothing more than a beautiful, normal corn, prospective buyers will just pass up your line of Okeetees in favor of more desirable ones.

Would I call yours OKEETEE? Your pictures are not representative of the true colors of your snake. We all see this from relative objects in the pictures that are not the colors we expected. Like I typed above, if you call it an Okeetee, some will agree. In lieu of an official quantative standard for this morph, others will just say it's a beautiful, normal corn. Not all corns have to have a label. To take editing license with one of Freud's lines, "sometimes a corn is just a corn". I don't think it's important to know what type of corn you have as long as you like it. If you ever get to the point of promoting this line and marketing becomes an issue, call it what you will. Some will agree and buy them while others will continue their search for the one they can't live without.

Your snake is a beautiful corn (red rat) snake. My dog is a black and brown one. Probably has the genes of many different breeds in her. If she ever ran free, I believe she'd be shot as a feral dog. She doesn't conform to any dog standard I'm familiar with, but I'd stand between my dog and that shooter anyday to take that bullet for her.

Good luck,

Don
 
Don,

Thank you so much for that post. It has helped alot. Thank you for being so detailed, AND thank you for realized the pics dont show what he looks like in person. My camera is old, but I will try to get better pics when I can.

I am not a breeder,so he will always be mine. I love snakes just because I do. That's pretty much the gist of it. I will be breeding next year...pythons and boas though (Dumerils and Womas probably).

Maybe someday when I am alot more educated about colubrids I will consider breeding, but that is a long time from now.

Again thank you so much for your post. Both Don and Cathy said the same things as you. Thanks again.
 
Don,
I hope you kept a copy of that! :rolleyes:

Hey, by the way, are you breeding any of your Orange Candycanes for large white borders? Seems I've got a pretty interesting look going on with the snakes I bought from you a few years back.
 
Clint: . . .

Clint Boyer said:
Don,
I hope you kept a copy of that! :rolleyes:

Hey, by the way, are you breeding any of your Orange Candycanes for large white borders? Seems I've got a pretty interesting look going on with the snakes I bought from you a few years back.

I sure should be doing that. Originally, I thought it had to have no borders to be a good candy cane. Not what the heck? The border white is blinding white so if we can expand that, it should really enhance the candy canes. I bred one such pair this year. We'll see what happens.

Are you getting some more this year? Be sure to show me/us when those hatch. I'd also like to see the parents. I don't spend much time on these forums like I'd like to, but if you have already shown those on the forums, either link me or send me pix. I'd love to see them. I rarely get to see "my babies" after they leave here.

Thanks,

Don
www.cornsnake.NET
 
This is an old pic of the female I bought from you. She has produced the line I'm working with now.
occ

She doesn't have much for borders but she throws some that do.


This is the male I bought from you. He's amazing!
occmale3

This pair has bred again this year.

I have one holdback female that looks much like dad, she'll go next year. I also gave a real nice pair to my friends Doug and Jeff at The Lazy Slither Ranch. I think that pair is ready this year.

I think It's a cool look. I also bred this male to a normal Miami female het amel to see how the borders translate back to normal.
 
WOW Clint!! That male is stunning! Don did a great job producing that guy. Try to remember to post pics of the babies you get from the miami breeding with him, I'd be interested to see what looks he produces from it.
 
I find that the RED okeetees look a bit dull to me, there isn't enough contrast, my favourite ones are ones with a bright yellow/orange background like the abbott line. They just look more vibrant and colourful to me :)


these threads have some NICE okeetees!

The third one that joe pierce posted, as such large borders nd rich colour, that is an ideal okeetee for me \/

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17947&page=2&pp=10&highlight=abbott <<<
/\
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12200&highlight=abbott

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9024&highlight=abbott
 
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