Old world x New world Hybrids ?

[Dorgrim]

Hey all, so...Ive been thinking recently about hybrids. I love their look when they are blatant hybrids (gtp x etb) (wallpythons) ect. But im looking at an asian rat attempt cross and wasnt able to find any good sources on my own for the kinds of studies surrounding the topic? Sense asian rats are old world rats I dont think it would work with a corn cross... though I'm def willing to try!

BUT in specific im looking to cross out my Elaphe climacophora... with the hopes of some amazing cool and uncommon blue/green rats!

ideas? thoughts? experiences?

 

[Carinata]

Hey all, so...Ive been thinking recently about hybrids. I love their look when they are blatant hybrids (gtp x etb) (wallpythons) ect. But im looking at an asian rat attempt cross and wasnt able to find any good sources on my own for the kinds of studies surrounding the topic? Sense asian rats are old world rats I dont think it would work with a corn cross... though I'm def willing to try!

BUT in specific im looking to cross out my Elaphe climacophora... with the hopes of some amazing cool and uncommon blue/green rats!

ideas? thoughts? experiences?

Well first of all there is NO Green Tree Python/Emerald Tree Boa, as one lays eggs and one has live birth. Asians Rats are pretty picky when it comes to breeding, so a hybrid would be difficult.

 

[Dorgrim]

Well first of all there is NO Green Tree Python/Emerald Tree Boa, as one lays eggs and one has live birth. Asians Rats are pretty picky when it comes to breeding, so a hybrid would be difficult.

ah DERP! srry i meant etb x atb
yeah thats what im thinking the problem might be..though..it would be good practice for me! I can really only handle 1-2 breedings If i decided to get into it.

hmmmm...

 

[dionythicus]

There have been some old/new world hybrids. Japanese rat snake/corn, I know for sure. I am hoping to get my Russian rats to breed with corns at some point.

 

[Dorgrim]

There have been some old/new world hybrids. Japanese rat snake/corn, I know for sure. I am hoping to get my Russian rats to breed with corns at some point.

OH THERE ARE, ARE THERE? HMMMMM

Id breed my anery and japanese rat in a heart beat... might be time to make some phone calls...and check some sources...

 

[Michael823]

There's so much variety in species that already exist in captivity, so I guess I don't see why hybrids are so exciting to people? Not trying to be rude, but I personally don't like the idea of people just going "hey, I like this aspect of that snake species, and that aspect of this snake species... so why nod breed them to make the best of both worlds?"

You have to remember (not you specifically, maybe you've already given this thought), even one clutch produces a lot of babies. So breeding hybrids is a big take-on. I mean, you could keep all of the babies until they grow into adulthood and eventually pass away, but the most likely outcome for the babies will be that they end up with other people. Which may work fine as pets, but then one of the people who got one might say "hey, I like this hybrid snake that I have, and I think it would look great if I bred it to...", and it just eventually ends up muddying up the gene pool, and really jeopardizing the millions of years of important evolution that made those species what they are.

Just my .02!

 

[Dorgrim]

There's so much variety in species that already exist in captivity, so I guess I don't see why hybrids are so exciting to people? Not trying to be rude, but I personally don't like the idea of people just going "hey, I like this aspect of that snake species, and that aspect of this snake species... so why nod breed them to make the best of both worlds?"

You have to remember (not you specifically, maybe you've already given this thought), even one clutch produces a lot of babies. So breeding hybrids is a big take-on. I mean, you could keep all of the babies until they grow into adulthood and eventually pass away, but the most likely outcome for the babies will be that they end up with other people. Which may work fine as pets, but then one of the people who got one might say "hey, I like this hybrid snake that I have, and I think it would look great if I bred it to...", and it just eventually ends up muddying up the gene pool, and really jeopardizing the millions of years of important evolution that made those species what they are.

Just my .02!

def and I totally understand the perspective.
Hybrids are something I really love as a reptile keeper, for aesthetics, for science! But right now I'm more attempting to gather information about the whole ordeal. I know just getting king/corn hybrids is a challenge and Id like to spend the next year or two soaking up info and getting the discussion started before i go into it.

To kind of solve the muddying issue, I would def like to work on hybridizing snakes from totally different backgrounds to make something that stands out so much, it would be hard to miss. Most rat/corn hybrids cant really be picked out and i understand thats where the issue comes into play.

But personally, ive never understood some of the anti hybrid feelings regarding corn/rat hybrids, seeing as it would be possibly normal in the wild.

Aside from that, i think I would only be working on an egg laying hybrid as well. I raised babies about a year ago and sold them all off, and I know id like to have a much more manageable number lol. It would probably be early culling 1-2 weeks after laying or something of the sort if in 2-3 years time I couldnt rack all the babies. Which..you know id like to keep all of them to see all the genetics play out!

But yeah I'm def thinking about all the pros and cons. and I hope i can be a relatively responsible hybrid-er
Aside from that, i could argue against morphs that cause unfavorable genes that the snake industry already propagates, ie: spydr, or even just bright noticeable colors that reduce camouflage.
its an interesting subject and I hope its something that I can tackle along with learning more about hybrids and maybe taking on some of my own

 

[Kokopelli]

Every person needs to set a threshold as to what he will be -un-willing to do in the name of curiosity... creating hybrids out of pure animals is one of those things for me...
Doesn't mean I condemn people who choose to do so... just the "for science!" comment gave me a bit of a goosebumps.

 

[dionythicus]

I want to produce beautiful pets. These are creatures that aren't useful in any way, other than to appreciate their appearance. I see the amazing patterns and colours in hybrids and I want to have that, reproduce it and sell it to people who want a gorgeous snake for a pet. I'm aiming for specific combinations of genes to make unique, eye-popping examples of what crossing genes can do.

There are plenty of unethical breeders out there. They are people who produce hybrids for no good reason. I think I have a good grasp of what I'm doing. I'm not producing huge numbers and I have high standards and personal ethics to control what goes out of my hands.

I see the reasons why many people don't like hybrids, and I understand some of the arguments. I don't do anything "just because I can". I think far, far down the road and I try to make the right decisions.

 

[Dorgrim]

I want to produce beautiful pets. These are creatures that aren't useful in any way, other than to appreciate their appearance. I see the amazing patterns and colours in hybrids and I want to have that, reproduce it and sell it to people who want a gorgeous snake for a pet. I'm aiming for specific combinations of genes to make unique, eye-popping examples of what crossing genes can do.

There are plenty of unethical breeders out there. They are people who produce hybrids for no good reason. I think I have a good grasp of what I'm doing. I'm not producing huge numbers and I have high standards and personal ethics to control what goes out of my hands.

I see the reasons why many people don't like hybrids, and I understand some of the arguments. I don't do anything "just because I can". I think far, far down the road and I try to make the right decisions.

Exactly! I totally agree. And I really hope through good research and doing the hard prep work I can make sure I'm a good example for hybrid breeders. Sometime down the line...not this or next year though lol.

@Kokopelli

hah srry! I mean it in a loving way science and I have a very good relationship. I think i treat science with love like people treat their designer morphs with love

 

[Michael823]

"I want to produce beautiful pets. These are creatures that aren't useful in any way, other than to appreciate their appearance."

See, I guess this is really where I personally differ, so maybe that's why I see hybrids differently than some people.

While I appreciate the appearance of my snakes (I mean, they're amazing animals to begin with), I think that they're appearance has a very small percentage to do with why I love them. I would say that temperament and health are by far my two most important factors when I'm looking at getting a new reptile. Which isn't to say that "hybrid" breeders don't care as much about the health and temperament of their pets, because I'm sure they do. But as far as the animal goes, I personally would feel a lot more comfortable about the health and temperament of an animal that is a species as it is (Corn Snake, Ball Python, etc...), than to have doubts about a hybrid animal that hasn't existed in captivity for a very long time (Woma/Balls, Kingsnake/Ratsnake, etc...).

And as far as there being hybrids in the wild...

I was more speaking on breeding hybrids from animals that would never naturally mate and reproduce in the wild. There are definitely some naturally occurring hybrids in the wild, but it's always with similar species animals, and there must be a good reason why the original animals have evolved, and co-evolved, without hybridization for so long.

And just to be clear, I'm not trying to protest or be too judgmental about "hybrid" breeding here. Honestly, people are free to do as they please. I'm just trying to understand what pros (if any?) outweigh the cons (if any?) in breeding hybrids. I personally can think of (what I consider) pros to not hybrid breeding, and to me there's really no cons in not "hybridizing" either, other than maybe appearance... and maybe appearance is a good reason for someone. I'm not judging, it just isn't a reason enough for me.

 

[Ixchel]

Mmm I think appearance has to do with at least some of the reasoning behind owning a reptile. Why one species over another? Or morph? Why not just a healthy nice dog? I dunno. I personally become attracted to a species first and then decide if their temperament, size, etc is a match for me, then finally pick out a healthy and nice individual. If people think that hybrids between x and y will look beautiful it's not that much different to me.

 

[Dorgrim]

either way! I dont want an ethics discussion! just more info on old world new world hybrids X3

there are other threads for ethics discussions....lol

 

[Ixchel]

I thought we were just talking about the pros of doing it. :O But true it's not any info. Unfortunately I don't know anything that hasn't already been said.