Pine, whats the real deal?

[CrazyCorn]

Ok I have heard off and on that pine is bad and then i have heard that pine is great from some people what is the real deal?! What is so toxic about it? Is there any proof other than hearsay?

 

[Clint Boyer]

Here's my experience..........

I've used pine in the past and had no problem.......OTHER than the pine chips getting into the water and making it unusable. I don't know just how toxic it is but it sure wasn't drinkable. I've had first hand expeience with cedar, that was obviously toxic to the snake.
I have since switched to aspen, no sense in chancing problems from long exposure to a mildly toxic substance of any kind.

 

[snakeladyamy]

Anyone else?

I would be interested in getting more info on this as well. (specifically about pine) Do any of our bio majors out there have any answers to this question??
It is always something that was told to me and i have repeated it many times, but to avoid the risk of possibly passing along bad advice, i would love to hear some evidence on either side...

 

[CornCrazy]

I know that aromatic woods in general, can cause respiratory problems. I work for a vet, and have heard him tell clients to not use pine MANY times. I've heard him say that it is toxic to snakes, especially if it gets into the water and the snake drinks the water or if it is ingested in general.

In my opinion, why risk the possibility of killing my snake when there are better substrates out there?

 

[13mur 6]

If you want to really get some first hand experience with the effects of pine, try this:

Go find a pine tree, and break off a fresh twig and bite into the end (no you won't die, don't worry, but don't do it too often), and see what it tastes like, it'll taste quite bitter and sort of leaves a wierd feeling in your mouth (don't do this with the pine needles though, those are REAL strong and might poison you). This is from the acids in the wood burning into your mouth, and if they get into your respiratory tract, it'll give you asthma, pneomonia, and a bunch of other nasty respiratory ailments.

Still not convinced? Wanna try drinking Pine-sol? That stuff has the same aromatic phenols and acids as pine does.

The phenols in pine also have effects on your liver (regardless whether you're a human, snake, bird, whatever). You breathe in the phenols, and they go directly to your blood stream. This causes your liver to secrete more detoxification enzymes than normal. If your liver says something is toxic, then it must be toxic.

Reason why pine is #1 sold bedding is that it's cheap, and it gets rid of bad smells and keeps bugs away. The fact that it's toxic is usually well hidden to consumers (mostly lil kids and their parents who keep a hamster or gerbil).

-Lemur 6

 

[snakeladyamy]

yes this is what i had heard... I don't (and never have) used pine for my snakes or their rodent feeders, but i was actually more concerned with the 'smell' that it gives off- for example, common things like particleboard have some pine in them, and i was wondering if the "fumes" (for lack of a better word) would be harmful in, for example, a shelving system made of particleboard

 

[Tim Madsen]

13mur 6, I'd like to know the basis for your statement "it'll give you asthma, pneomonia, " I'm assuming that the last word is suppose to be pneumonia?

 

[13mur 6]

13mur 6, I'd like to know the basis for your statement "it'll give you asthma, pneomonia, " I'm assuming that the last word is suppose to be pneumonia?

Oh, don't you know? Woodworkers who use pine very often for extended periods of time have tons of respiratory problems (and it's not linked to smoking). This is even if they're using masks, etc. They mainly get asthma, but there have been reported cases of pneomonia, bronchitis, chronic cough, chronic sore throat, and lung cancer.

There's been a ton of papers done on this, since pine has been in use in wood working for so long (much longer than it's been used as a bedding, like hundreds of years longer). Here's a short one: http://www.au.dk/en/aj2001/aj01s328.pdf

Just do some searches online for "pine wood workers respiratory", you'll get a ton of info on the effects of pine acids on the respiratory system.

edit: Here we go, I found a list of a bunch of scientific papers on pine/cedar: http://www.kindplanet.org/scifacts.pdf
You can do a medline, or pubmed, or some other medical journal search for them.

-Lemur 6

 

[Tim Madsen]

Those are some interesting papers, but if you research asthma and pneumonia you'll find a completely different point of view. The folks who have researched asthma are not sure how it is caused, but believe it is genetic. As for pneumonia it is caused by bacteria, viruses or mycoplasmas. There is a very rare type of pneumonia that is caused by foreign matter being breathed into the lungs. Most of the pneumonia that I've seen in snakes has been either bacterial or viral. It's a stretch to make a connection between someone working in a saw mill or terpentine factory and a snake using pine bedding. Think about where corn snakes come from? They live in pine forests where the ground is covered with pine and pine resin. The water they drink is infused with pine. They seem to do well in the wild. Pine may not be the best substrate but it is not the snake killer that people have made it out to be the last few years. I've used it for many years and have never had a pine related illness. Now if you ask me what is the most benign substrate, I'd say news print.
Just to change the subject a little, what is the cause of most illness in captive snakes? Poor husbandry! 99% of the illness I've seen in people's pet snakes can be attributed to poor husbandry. It doesn't matter what substrate you use, if you don't keep the snakes cage clean and water changed, it will get sick. IMHO

 

[13mur 6]

err... if I'm not mistaken, snakes in general avoid pine forests (I've yet to come across a snake in a pine forest in atleast where I go look for snakes. Most of the ones I see are usually in tall grass, in deciduous forest, or near river banks). It sort of makes sense, since nothing really lives in a pine forest, no food to eat there.

Pine is just not a friendly tree (atleast to me they aren't, sticky and has needles, I'll stay away from them). If you like pine, then I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, a question about pine TOXICITY was asked, and I simply answered that. Pine has toxic chemicals in it, end of argument. Whether your snake can handle those toxins or not is a different question. I mean almonds have traces of strictnine in it, yet I don't see almond sales plummeting or people dying from over-eating them.

-Lemur 6

 

[pinatamonkey]

My field guide lists a lot of species of snake as being 'common' in pine forests.

Almonds (bitter almonds in particular), and pits of various fruits, contain cyanide.

 

[Tim Madsen]

"err... if I'm not mistaken, snakes in general avoid pine forests (I've yet to come across a snake in a pine forest in atleast where I go look for snakes. Most of the ones I see are usually in tall grass, in deciduous forest, or near river banks). It sort of makes sense, since nothing really lives in a pine forest, no food to eat there."

You are mistaken, Cornsnakes mainly inhabit pine forests. I live in a area of the Southeast that is mainly pine forests. I have collected numerous species of snakes in these forests including Cornsnakes. These forests have plenty of food (rodents, lizards, birds, amphibians). I have not seen any definitive study that shows pine bedding is in anyway harmful to snakes. I have asked the anti-pine folks to produce such a study everytime I see one of these posts. They always drag out the same studies about factory workers that are exposed to pine resins. This is comparing apples and oranges. Personally I've seen people having more problems with Aspen shavings (ingestion problems, R.I. ect.) than pine. As I've said all substrates have good and bad qualities, but pine being a snake killer is just another Urban Legend. IMHO

 

[mattsnake]

There is a lake in New Hampshire that has a "rattlesnake island". Anyways, it is a dence pine forest that used to be known for its massive population of timber rattlers. They did fine in the jungle of pine, and there is also some garters there. Just because the pine supposedly gives humans respiratory problems, it does not mean it does anything to reptiles.

 

[paulc]

Here in England adders are often found in pine woodlands.
I keep all of my snakes on pine wood shavings have done for 12 years(my oldest corn is 12), and i have not had any respiratory problems (touch wood).

 

[13mur 6]

Alrighty, then I stand corrected. However, I'll continue to avoid pine for the sake of my own health.

-Lemur 6