Problem with breeding rats and mice.

[amon]

I've started to breed them, but found that the biggest problem is keeping the mom's or other adults from eating the pinkies!

1st with mice:

I was told to either have big enough cage to hold 3-4 females so they can have each corner for their own babies, or move the expecting mom to separate small cage to give birth. The ones that I moved to individual cages gave birth first. The first 3 moms gave birth to very tiny pinkies and soon (1or 2 days) ate them or killed them (like cut in pieces) all. I reasoned that these are first time Moms (they were small and I raised them) and accepted it. But then when some other females which I bought from another breeder (which shouldn't be first time Moms) gave birth in the individual cages, I find that they ate some of the pinkies, leaving only 3 to 5 babies to raise.

Is that normal? or are the moms not having enough nutrient to feed them? Cuz I was told to just use dry dog pellets to feed them before (I'm trying to add more varieties now)

And for the females I left in the bigger cage, I see a big bunch of pinkies all in the single nest them made. Are the females all raising the babies together??

2nd for the rats:

Contrevary to what I read in some posts here, my rats breed so much slower than the mice. About a couple weeks after them came home, one morning I found 5 pinkies in the cage (one of the female must have been pregnant). But the Mom kept moving them around and finally I saw blood on the pinkies, so I took them out and fed them.

I figure the cage is too small for them so I changed to a bigger cage and move out one of the female, so now is 1.3 in a big cage. Then I had to wait almost 3 months to see another litter of about 10 pinkies. First they are all resting nicely in on corner with the Mom. A couple days later, I saw 2 pinkies moved to another corner and one has some wounds. I though the mom may be getting rid of some unfit ones and should have more chance of raising the rest, so I let it ride. Another 2 days later, the pinkies were all gone!!!!!

So I'm quite frustrated with the rats.. the cage is very big already, according to the experienced breeder who sold me the rats, it is even bigger then his cages and 1.3 should be very fine.

Can anyone give me any ideas?

Thanks very much.

 

[Cat_Eyed_Lady]

well, in my experience.... if the mice arent first time mom's and they still kill off their babies, its one of 2 things.... not enough food or that is why the breeder got rid of her in the first place. Sometimes it takes time for the mice to form a good group and then after that they should be ok, as long as they have plenty of food. What I give my mice (and rats) is Kaytee hamster/gerbil food and rodent blocks. 1.3 mice in a 10 gallon tank should be ok but if you have one certain female that you Know is always killing off babies.... well... I will seperate her and see if it stops, if it does? I cull off that female. btw.... yes, once you have a good group of mice together there is no need to seperate the group. The females will help each other take care of all the babies in one nest.

on the rats.... I have only 1.1 with them. Although some have great luck with more females.... I just didnt because the females were always fighting over who would take care of the babies. So with 1.1, my females are dropping about 15-20 pups every month.

hope that all makes sense its early for me lol Good luck with all the rodents

 

[omni]

I've raised my own Fancy mice for feeders for a couple years now, and have lost an occasional litter to cannibalism. Not exactly sure why they do that.
95% of the time I feed them dog chow(a high-fat diet for larger litters), and sometimes sunflower seeds (low-fat,high protein).
The times I lost a litter, I'm thinking it was from the more nervous parents or they were stressed.
I keep 1.2 (m.f) in each of my 10gal tanks with a wheel, cardboard tubes to play with and a nest box. Yes, cagemates will help rear the young, usually there will be always at least one adult w/ the litter in the nest at all times while the others are out and about. They always only make one nest and if the litters are born real close together, nursing is shared. Sometimes you can swap the pinkies into another good momma's cage.
It might be loud noises or something. Nervous mommas will carry the young around and that's not what you want to see. I've also seen older females steal babies from a litter and move them.
I get more litters from mice I don't play with, and I usually leave 2 or 3 pinkies with the mom to grow to fuzzy or bigger when I take some out for feeding off.
One trio I call "the scared tank", I don't let litters from them grow past pinky because I don't want them to breed for the next gen. Only the friendliest get to produce the next breeders.
Sorry so long a post, but I don't think it is so cut and dried how to stop them eating their litters.:shrugs:

 

[amon]

Cat Eyed Lady and Omni, thanks very much for your reply. Some further questions:

1. How big is a 10 gallon tank? We don’t go by gallon here, only use measurements. My box for 1.3 or 1.4 mice is 14.5” long x 10.5” wide x 9”tall, is it big enough?
2. how does a nest box look like? I only give them pieces of papers and they make them into something like a bird’s nest and would pull a couple bigger piece of paper to cover the top. But they chew up the paper often. How can I make a more permanent nest box? On this subject, they seem to like to chew on anything chewable, and it is difficult to find furnishings in non chewable material. Any ideas?
3. You guys mention finding specific mouse to separate and/or not allow next generation…..but how do you tell which by which???? They all look the same!! At one point I thought of using marker to put marks on their back….

Thanks again for your help.

 

[susang]

Hi, first what you are giving the measurements for is a 5 gallon tank. Ten gallon tanks are about 20" long. I have mice, rats and hamsters and all of mine co-mother. I use cardboard boxes and tubes for hides, usually they will chew the tubes and get them where they want them as a nest. My rats have cardboard boxes for nest and chewing is what they do. I occasionally get some cannibalism, but not much anymore. My mice are i established colonies and I leave them alone (no swapping). Occasionally a male will get a little aggressive so he gets fed and there is a young male that will take his place within the colony. I do some changing around with the rats, they seem to tolerate it better. Hamster, demon spawn, I just let go and take out feeders as needed or just to thin the numbers.
After I've said all of this I think your tank is too small for any size colony. I use the big plastic tubs 56 qt, we put hardware cloth in the center of the lid almost the size of the lid.
I feel no matter what most rodents need to get established to be productive breeders, and much of it is what you can try and what they will tolerate. That's probably why everyone will have a little different advice. susang

 

[Cat_Eyed_Lady]

1. How big is a 10 gallon tank? 20"X10.5"X12.5" .... this is the size of a 10 gallon tank and is about the smallest size I would suggest for either 1.2 or 1.3 mice

2. how does a nest box look like? Mine look like cardboard soda pop containers When ever I buy soda I save the cardboard they come in and cut to size and replace atleast once a week. You want to give them lots to chew, keeps their teeth down and gives them something to do

3. You guys mention finding specific mouse to separate and/or not allow next generation…..but how do you tell which by which???? They all look the same!! Do you have all white mice or colored mice?? I have colored mice so for me it was easier to tell who was doing what IE eating babies or fighting with the others in the group.

 

[amon]

ICIC. Looks like I'll need to find some bigger containers. But if 10 gal for mice? How big do I need for rats? they are huge compare to the mice!!!

I only have all white mice and rats, that's all we can find here (I'm in Hong Kong). That's why I can't tell them apart.:shrugs::rofl:

How's hamster for feeders? I heard once that they don't have much meat, is that true?

tks.

 

[susang]

My rat colonies are in a 55 gal, 40 gal and a converted ferret cage (around 36 x36 x 20. The rats need very close wire or solid walls. The converted ferret cage is covered with hardware cloth as the babies could just crawl out the wire. I've seen a lot of people on rat forums use big bird cages. susang

 

[susang]

My oldest snake was raised on hamsters, they get a decent size. The problem is they are demon spawn, evil biters. They also take a while to establish, with that said in one year I produced over 300 from 1.2 start. I should add they are smellier.

 

[MerlinsPop]

I've suddenly become very interested in these Feeder threads. If Butter eats the remamining 2 mice I bought and have in a smallish Critter Keeper, I'll be setting up a small colony for his use. I know it'll take a while to get them started, but by then I'll have at least 3 fuzzy eaters, 2 still on big pinkies (if I can get vern to start eating again! :bang and butter eating full grown ones.

 

[Billy Graham]

Amon,
a cage size of 6"wx15"Lx4"H is plenty of room to breed 1.4 mice and will produce 30-40 mice per mo. ( this is also the size of the commercial mouse cages out on the market.)

The best mice for production numbers is a white swiss webster mouse, although they have a lousy immune system, but breed the swiss to a pet store mouse and it will add the immune system.

Cannibalism can be an inherited behavior, get rid of the mice for some more docile mice.

Dog food can be a great source of food don't exceed about 12%fat.

Billy Graham
GlacierRodents.com

 

[amon]

Thanks again for all your info.

One last question: what is the temp. range these little guys can tolarate? cuz where I keep them(the only allowed corner by the lady), it gets between 60 in the winter to 105 in the summer.

 

[wade]

Mice and rats both handle cold better than heat. Your low temperatures are no problem. They will survive 105* in the summer but you will find that they stop breeding during that time.

One thing I didn't see mentioned above (if I missed it sorry) is that mice and rats need to feel secure. If they are in a high trafic area or are being disturbed all the time, this will lead to canablism quicker than anything else.

 

[amon]

Mice and rats both handle cold better than heat. Your low temperatures are no problem. They will survive 105* in the summer but you will find that they stop breeding during that time.

One thing I didn't see mentioned above (if I missed it sorry) is that mice and rats need to feel secure. If they are in a high trafic area or are being disturbed all the time, this will lead to canablism quicker than anything else.

Hopefully next summer I can find some way to lower the temp. add some fans maybe.

They are in a very quite area, no traffic at all. And I knew that so I tried not to check on them everyday, only every other day or longer.

My second box of rat is having their first litter, I've seen them for 3 days(I was going to change the substrate and found them, so I didn't even touch anything, just add food and water and put them back) I just added some food and they are still there and I saw a female in the nest, looks like nursing the pinkies. keeping my fingers crossed.

Oh, oh....another thing...there was a big fat female mouse I thought was going to burst with many pinkies. but I found it dead today. Out of curiousity, I cut it open and found NO babies, but bunch of blown up organs. Is it some virus? Should I be concern???

 

[Billy Graham]

mouse temps for breeding

Mice and temps
Mice should be maintained at a temp of 68 at a temp of 62 they will stop producing offspring or have small litters or eat them. On the high temp any thing over 82 will cause the sperm in mice to die and any thing over 75 will cause small litters or they can eat them.
Handling mice?
I recommend handling the mice and looking at the mice w/ pups daily. The reason is you want docile mice and rats, if they become territorial they will eat the pups. To back this statement up ask your self this question. Do you think commercial mouse breeders only pick the mice up when they're not prego and the with out pups in the cages?

Hope this helps,
Billy Graham
GlacierRodents.com

 

[amon]

Mice and temps
Mice should be maintained at a temp of 68 at a temp of 62 they will stop producing offspring or have small litters or eat them. On the high temp any thing over 82 will cause the sperm in mice to die and any thing over 75 will cause small litters or they can eat them.
Handling mice?
I recommend handling the mice and looking at the mice w/ pups daily. The reason is you want docile mice and rats, if they become territorial they will eat the pups. To back this statement up ask your self this question. Do you think commercial mouse breeders only pick the mice up when they're not prego and the with out pups in the cages?

Hope this helps,
Billy Graham
GlacierRodents.com

Thanks for your info.

So you mean I should go ahead and check on them regularly and then eliminate those that don't react well with handling and only keep those that handle fine? If I get your point correctly, I like it, it sounds like will make my life with them much easier in the long run.:laugh01:

 

[hartsock]

Thanks for your info.

So you mean I should go ahead and check on them regularly and then eliminate those that don't react well with handling and only keep those that handle fine? If I get your point correctly, I like it, it sounds like will make my life with them much easier in the long run.:laugh01:

I don't think that was what he was saying. I think he was saying that if you handle them or work with them regularly, they will calm down with time and be used to you. That way they won't eat the pups due to being stressed that some big monster is getting near them in their nest with their babies. Think about it, why can a dogs owner usually do anything they want with a mother dog and her puppies (usually) where if a stranger tried it, they'll be bit. It is because of the trust issue. Gain your mice's trust and it will help in the long run.

 

[rolandslf]

Hi there, this is a very interesting thread. I breed quite a large amount of Mice and Rats. My colonies are made up as follows: Mice = 1) 5.15 in a 55 gal. cage. 2) 3.8 in a 20 gal. cage. Rats = 1) 1.2 in a 40 gal cage.
2) 1.1 in a 20 gal cage. 3) 1.1 in a 20 gal. cage.
I have a literal population explosion every 6 -7 weeks, currently I have about 30 baby mice and 40 baby rats, you also need to remember that from this stock I feed an average of 10 snakes a week. The rats steal each others babies all the time but I don't interfere, the mice are temperamental but also feed each others babies, I don't mess around with the colonies by swopping or introducing new members I just let them grow naturally and split them only when they become too big. I have not experienced cannibalism for at least a year now.
Lastly I feed both the Mice and the Rats a mixture of Sunflower Seed, Rabbit Pellets, Dog Pellets and Crushed Mealie (corn) Pips. I have found that feeding them Peanuts over an extended period of time causes Growths.
Sorry for the long Post.

Ciao

 

[phicks48]

one male per cage and a high proteen food 21 percent at lest extra males tend to kill and eat the young paul h

 

[amon]

I don't think that was what he was saying. I think he was saying that if you handle them or work with them regularly, they will calm down with time and be used to you. That way they won't eat the pups due to being stressed that some big monster is getting near them in their nest with their babies. Think about it, why can a dogs owner usually do anything they want with a mother dog and her puppies (usually) where if a stranger tried it, they'll be bit. It is because of the trust issue. Gain your mice's trust and it will help in the long run.

Thanks for the clear up. I get it now.

My mice colonies seems to have settled down now, I can see they are nursing quite a few litters in different corners of the box calmly.

But it's tough to work with the rats, I've gotten bitten twice:shrugs: