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Sexing question.....
- Thread starter thuman22
- Start date
Missy
loves her little darlings
my vet would strongly advice not to sex them as hatchlings, wait till they are at least a year old when they are bigger, tis very dangerous to sex such a little hatchling and could cause them damage in the long run. he also would not advice you to do it, take it to a vet or a snake specialist who knows what they are doing and where they are probing. it can be very harmful to the snake if you slip up just a tad.
Amanda E
Snake Addict!
What I'm planning on doing when mine hatch is to immediately separate them, and when they shed, examine their sheds.
Count the ventral (belly) scales and subtract the subcaudal (tail) scales. (Note: count each of the paired subcaudal scales as one scale.) Much easier to do if you have a magnifying glass.
The number you get (greater or less then 154) will tell you the best guess on sex without probing or popping. The farther away from 154 the more assurance you have on the sex.
Examples:
225 ventral (belly) scales - 64 subcaudal (tail) scales = 161 = greater than 154 = female
230 ventral (belly) scales - 81 subcaudal (tail) scales = 149 = less than 154 = male
Count the ventral (belly) scales and subtract the subcaudal (tail) scales. (Note: count each of the paired subcaudal scales as one scale.) Much easier to do if you have a magnifying glass.
The number you get (greater or less then 154) will tell you the best guess on sex without probing or popping. The farther away from 154 the more assurance you have on the sex.
Examples:
225 ventral (belly) scales - 64 subcaudal (tail) scales = 161 = greater than 154 = female
230 ventral (belly) scales - 81 subcaudal (tail) scales = 149 = less than 154 = male
oscarthesnake
New member
Wow..
Amanda E.~
I have never heard of that before. Can you do the same thing to juvenile snakes or no?
Scott
Amanda E.~
I have never heard of that before. Can you do the same thing to juvenile snakes or no?
Scott
Amanda E
Snake Addict!
oscarthesnake said:
Yep, it works for all ages. The snake only grows bigger, the scales are still the same in number.
thuman22 said:
Well, so far all of my snakes have been accurately sexed using this method (the two examples above are from 2 of my snakes). The farther away from 154 your result is, the more accurate. As far as a the accuracy termed in percentages, I don't know.
cranwill
Tim Cranwill
Hmmm... It seems to me like a lot of misinformation is going on here (not to sound rude). You CAN sex hatchlings as soon as they hatch/come out of the egg. Which ever vet told you to wait a year, should not be visited again... other than for meds.
I pop my hatchlings as I remove them from the incubator and set them up in individual containers. Popping is far safer than probing with such small snakes and once you know how to do it, it takes oh... maybe 3 seconds. It's not a skill that is very easily mastered but it's also not very hard. Have a breeder in your area show the basics and with a bit of gentle practice, you should be fine. You could also buy Dr. Mark Seward’s video.
As for the counting scales on the shed method, sounds interesting. I'm not sure it it's true or not but it DOES seem like a LOT of work to do to end up with a "guess" at the sex. You might as well just look at the length and shape of the tail.
Just my 1.63 cents (in Canadian currency. That = 2 cents US)
I pop my hatchlings as I remove them from the incubator and set them up in individual containers. Popping is far safer than probing with such small snakes and once you know how to do it, it takes oh... maybe 3 seconds. It's not a skill that is very easily mastered but it's also not very hard. Have a breeder in your area show the basics and with a bit of gentle practice, you should be fine. You could also buy Dr. Mark Seward’s video.
As for the counting scales on the shed method, sounds interesting. I'm not sure it it's true or not but it DOES seem like a LOT of work to do to end up with a "guess" at the sex. You might as well just look at the length and shape of the tail.
Just my 1.63 cents (in Canadian currency. That = 2 cents US)
mattsnake
snake hunter
Check out http://cornutopia.com/Corn Utopia o...CornUtopia/Sexing corns collage - CAPTION.jpg for some sexing methods and pics.
Missy
loves her little darlings
cranwill said:
ok im sorry cranwill but i have to strongly disagree with you, he is a very very well respected reptile vet, he is a exotic reptile specialist. i doubt he is wrong, i take all my snakes to him plus two reptile shops around my area also use him too. so if he was giving wrong info then all our snakes would probably be dead. so sorry but i will not let you knock our vet.
thanx for your info but no thanx, its your snakes health here not mine. i know what im doing.
Popping only tells you if it is definately a male. If you pop a hatchling and something comes out it is a male, 100% definate. If nothing comes out it could be either a female or a non-popping male. Other than probing, no method is 100% accurate and as it is very unsafe to probe hatchlings all you can get is a well educated guess.
cranwill
Tim Cranwill
LOL... ok Missy. I guess YOU'RE right and I'm wrong even though I have first hand successful experience doing it this way. And just because your vet knows JACK about sexing snakes, doesn't mean he's a bad vet or that your snakes would be dead. All it means is he knows JACK about sexing snakes. Period. No need to take it personally. :sobstory:
Do you seriously think that even ONE of the 1000's of corn breeders in this world waits a year to sex their hatchlings? LOL Ok then....
Jimmy, popping will also tell you if it's a female <b>if</b> you know what to look for. When I pop a male, he's labeled male and I don't pop him again. If one doesn't pop as a male, I label it a female and will likely pop it 1 or 2 more times over the next week or two JUST to make sure. However, when popping a female, you should see two little red dots instead of the hemipenes... that's assuming you've done it correctly which is half the battle. So you CAN tell, it just takes more practice and a good idea of what you're looking for.
But hey, at the end of the day, you do it your way and I do it my way. No big deal...
And just because your vet knows JACK about sexing snakes, doesn't mean he's a bad vet or that your snakes would be dead. All it means is he knows JACK about sexing snakes. Period. No need to take it personally. :sobstory: Do you seriously think that even ONE of the 1000's of corn breeders in this world waits a year to sex their hatchlings? LOL Ok then....
Jimmy, popping will also tell you if it's a female <b>if</b> you know what to look for. When I pop a male, he's labeled male and I don't pop him again. If one doesn't pop as a male, I label it a female and will likely pop it 1 or 2 more times over the next week or two JUST to make sure. However, when popping a female, you should see two little red dots instead of the hemipenes... that's assuming you've done it correctly which is half the battle. So you CAN tell, it just takes more practice and a good idea of what you're looking for.
But hey, at the end of the day, you do it your way and I do it my way. No big deal...
I don't know much about this, but something is obvious to me. Obviously there is a safe way to sex corns before they are a year old. I just got 7 hatchlings from Rich, out of the egg, not fed or shed. I got 2 males and 5 females. Now I feel confident that Rich is not sending me random snakes and telling me that they are sexed. I'm also sure that he safely sexed them before sending them to me. I'm kinda curious what method he used, but I'm sure whatever method it was, it was safe and accurate.
gardenmum
Hopelessly Addicted
Most breeders sex their hatchlings by popping, this includes Rich, as I have read posts of his that say he pops them. Popping is, I believe, the best and quickest way to check a neonate. When the snake is just in its first couple weeks, it is easy to get a male to expose his organ(s) with very little pressure on them. BUT this should not be done by anyone unless they have been shown how to do it properly by an experience person as you could still easily damage or hurt the baby if done improperly.
But, as the snake gets a bit older, popping becomes less and less "safe" for the snake in the sense that the organ could be damaged since more pressure must be used to conteract the snake using its muscles to keep their organs in, so probing would be best when it gets bigger and especially for a yearling and older.
I have a herp vet that I go to and she is the one who showed me how to properly pop a neonate and, herself, said it was the safe way until they get bigger. In fact, she does not suggest probing one until they are a bit larger as she feels it is much too easy to accidently puncture the organ. But that is her opinion and her method.
Now, even with all that being said, I think it really depends on which method each person finds best and easiest and which they are most comfortable using as long as care is given not to do damage. It is very, very advisable, though, for anyone wanting to sex their own snakes, to be shown how first by someone who knows how, is careful and is successful at it.
Just my opinion on this issue.
But, as the snake gets a bit older, popping becomes less and less "safe" for the snake in the sense that the organ could be damaged since more pressure must be used to conteract the snake using its muscles to keep their organs in, so probing would be best when it gets bigger and especially for a yearling and older.
I have a herp vet that I go to and she is the one who showed me how to properly pop a neonate and, herself, said it was the safe way until they get bigger. In fact, she does not suggest probing one until they are a bit larger as she feels it is much too easy to accidently puncture the organ. But that is her opinion and her method.
Now, even with all that being said, I think it really depends on which method each person finds best and easiest and which they are most comfortable using as long as care is given not to do damage. It is very, very advisable, though, for anyone wanting to sex their own snakes, to be shown how first by someone who knows how, is careful and is successful at it.
Just my opinion on this issue.
If we're primarily concerned with safely sexing the neonates, it seems to me that the least potentially damaging method is the one that Amanda so generously explained -- counting the scales of a shed. On another thread that I started about kinks, at least one breeder said that he believes some babies end up with kinked spines only while thrashing around while being handled. I've seen babies popped and I've seen babies probed, and there has always been ALOT of thrashing around during both procedures (not that I blame the babies!). If there's an accurate way to sex babies without even handling them -- by counting scales on a shed -- that would absolutely be the safest thing for them. Yes, that requires a bit more effort on our part, but I'd much rather spend a little extra time to make sure I don't inadvertently damage a baby.
Thanks so much, Amanda, for your post and examples. That's definitely the way I'll use from now on. Just wish I'd saved my hatchling's first sheds -- now I'll have to wait for the second sheds!
Liz
Thanks so much, Amanda, for your post and examples. That's definitely the way I'll use from now on. Just wish I'd saved my hatchling's first sheds -- now I'll have to wait for the second sheds!
Liz
cranwill
Tim Cranwill
LOL... well, knock yourself out! In the end, you still won’t be guaranteed to know the sex... far from it.
If someone knows what they are doing, the snake will be properly restrained and not "thrashing around" and there is NO way that would cause kinks. Kinks are from incubation problems.
Anyway, I'm done defending my (and most breeders) method. You're welcome to drop by any time to see how safe and accurate it is. LOL
If someone knows what they are doing, the snake will be properly restrained and not "thrashing around" and there is NO way that would cause kinks. Kinks are from incubation problems.
Anyway, I'm done defending my (and most breeders) method. You're welcome to drop by any time to see how safe and accurate it is.
LOL
Missy
loves her little darlings
well gardenmum and snakenutt, thats exactly what i have tried explaining here too. only to get told i was wrog and our vet was wrong basically.
i agree counting the sheds would be the best thing to do.
like i said before cranwill, its your snakes health your dealing with, not ours.
i agree counting the sheds would be the best thing to do.
like i said before cranwill, its your snakes health your dealing with, not ours.
So Pirate55
New member
ok this was definately not meant to bump up an old argument or to even start a new one, but Amanda's way seemed to be the least invasive and most harmless way.
The only current she that i had to test this own was, of course, one of my unknowns but here's the skinny on what i got
220 - 58 = 162
now by this formula i have a female, which is actually what i thought it was to start out with. I was once told that you can hold a hatchling amel or snow up to a light and almost see the hemipenes inside. I held her up when she was younger and saw nothing, where as my snow. It definately had something post vent. Now i guess i'm waiting until my knowns male & female shed so that i can perform the test.
The only current she that i had to test this own was, of course, one of my unknowns but here's the skinny on what i got
220 - 58 = 162
now by this formula i have a female, which is actually what i thought it was to start out with. I was once told that you can hold a hatchling amel or snow up to a light and almost see the hemipenes inside. I held her up when she was younger and saw nothing, where as my snow. It definately had something post vent. Now i guess i'm waiting until my knowns male & female shed so that i can perform the test.