Stick On Thermometer Debate

[graffixcs]

I deliberated for a while as to where to post this (here or in husbandry) and decided on here (obviously) as this is a partial "vent" thread.

Personally I am frustrated that there is allot of "advice" to totally avoid the stick on type thermometers as they don't work, or are highly inaccurate. :twoguns:

This lead me to do a little experiment. From a sample of 6 of these "stick on" thermometers I concluded they had an accuracy of +/- 2 Deg. F. Admittedly this is a very small sample group and is by no means a conclusive study, however, I feel that it is enough grounds to somewhat disclaim the statements that "they don't work".

Stick on thermometers are a tool, as with any tool they have a function. Just the same as you would not use an axe to cut glass, stick on thermometers do not measure substrate temperature, nor are they intended to.

The safest husbandry practise is to measure and monitor the hottest part of any enclosure (vivarium or tub) that your animal can come in contact with.

For those people that use a UTH (Under Tank Heater) the temperature is most reliably measured on the enclosure surface, under the bedding of choice as snakes will "burrow" and come in contact with the heat at this point. To measure and monitor this, it is recommended that a thermometer with a remote probe is used.

Having said that, there are allot of people that use heat or spot lamps. Unless you lost your mind and mounted this lamp under the viv, burying a thermometer probe in substrate is pointless, keeping in mind you want to monitor the hottest area.

So what is the point of this thread?

Simple, heat lamps provide heat through ambient thermal flow, stick on thermometers measure ambient temperature and must be positioned in the enclosure accordingly (right tool, right job). While it may be potentially hazardous to rely on these solely, they definitely have their place in ensuring a healthy environment when used in conjunction with a separate thermometer, just the same as there are potential hazards with relying on just one thermometer of any type.

In summary; there is a benefit to using a stick on thermometer, placed close to the substrate and adjacent structure when using a heat lamp as well as monitoring ambient temperature of the enclosure.

Please also note that this is just my opinion and in no way is it my intention to single anyone out or offend anyone at all. :wavey:

 

[Mary-Beth]

I think for a stick on thermomiter to measure the hottest part of a viv that uses a heat lamp, it would have to be placed on the top of the substrate, with the light shining on it. But that is JMO.

 

[graffixcs]

Mary-Beth I totally agree, however my point is that the general (and I mean VERY general) consensus is that stick on thermometers should be avoided like the plague. When used for the purpose intended they add allot of information regarding vivarium conditions. I do also believe that they cannot be relied upon solely, but this more often than not is omitted from any advice offered.

I suppose the whole point to this was to maybe make people aware that you can use these thermometers safely when paired with a remote or spot thermometer and not just be told a flat NO!

 

[Joejr14]

If you have a probe thermometer just what does a stick on thermometer do? How does it 'provide a lot of information' about the environment? Yeah--the environment on the glass where the snake doesn't live.

 

[Serpwidgets]

Wow, I didn't even know there was a debate to be had on this topic. As long as the thermometer you use gives you the information you need, what's to debate? The stick-on models can be useful for anyone who knows what they're doing and takes the data for what it's worth.

For the record, probe thermometers may give you a readout in tenths of a degree, but it doesn't mean they're accurate to within a tenth of a degree. (Is this like people assuming their car can actually go 130 MPH because the speedometer has numbers that high painted on it?) :sidestep:

I was trying to figure out a way to accurately calibrate such probe thermometer at temps ranging from 80-90F, but haven't come up with anything good so far. For example, I recently put both of my probe thermometers (the probes) right next to each other inside my armpit with my arm held against my side to "seal them in." I held it like this for 10 minutes and, not surprisingly, they showed a 2 degree difference between them. :santa:

Is anyone really counting on probes to give perfect readings? :shrugs:

 

[Mary-Beth]

Is anyone really counting on probes to give perfect readings? :shrugs:

I'm not. But I do expect them to give me a much more accurate reading of my hot spot then a stick-on kind would --- because of their location in the viv not because I might or might not think one gives a more accurate reading then the other.

And that is why I will continue to recommend that people replace their stick-ons with digitals.

 

[Lennycorn]

I'm just throwing this in for thought..... but what to you guys think of using a stick on thermometer right top of the substrate. I do that for the cool side and I figure it's OK with the few +/- degrees off.
I thinking, that should be the hottest point on the cool side and under the substrate should be coolest on cool side.

 

[wavenup]

i do that too with mine on the cool side. i only have one digital probe themometer on the hot side

 

[Serpwidgets]

I'm not. But I do expect them to give me a much more accurate reading of my hot spot then a stick-on kind would --- because of their location in the viv not because I might or might not think one gives a more accurate reading then the other.

And that is why I will continue to recommend that people replace their stick-ons with digitals.

If you're using an UTH and you place a probe underneath the substrate against the bottom, this may give a different reading than if you stick a stick-on onto the surface. Kinda like placing your hand lightly on a piece of warm glass, versus pressing it against the glass, in which case it's going to conduct more heat to your hand. A stick-on would be more versatile in those cases, since the probe can only be placed on, not pushed against the surface.

I'd think the second method would be a more accurate simulation of what the snake is doing, if they're laying under the substrate against the bottom. But it all really depends on how the snake chooses to "bask" too...

I dunno, I must have missed the thread(s) where this was supposed to be a big deal. :shrugs:

 

[Mary-Beth]

If you're using an UTH and you place a probe underneath the substrate against the bottom, this may give a different reading than if you stick a stick-on onto the surface. Kinda like placing your hand lightly on a piece of warm glass, versus pressing it against the glass, in which case it's going to conduct more heat to your hand. A stick-on would be more versatile in those cases, since the probe can only be placed on, not pushed against the surface.

I'd think the second method would be a more accurate simulation of what the snake is doing, if they're laying under the substrate against the bottom. But it all really depends on how the snake chooses to "bask" too...

I dunno, I must have missed the thread(s) where this was supposed to be a big deal. :shrugs:

Well when you put it that way I guess having both would be ideal, but to what end. LOL you would need a thermomiter in every hide and under the water dish because those temps will very from the pressed against the bottom, resting gently on the bottom, laying out in the open temps.

I think I'll just stick (no pun intended!) with my digi thermomiter probe stuck to the bottom of the viv to make sure the UTH isn't heating things up to much.

Also, my probe has a flat side that sticks to the bottom....

 

[Serpwidgets]

LOL, exactly... whatever works for you.

It just seems like this is some issue that is being taken very seriously somewhere (so much so that people need to "vent" over it???) and I don't get it.

As Chris would say: It's sjut thremeometers. :grin01:

 

[Mary-Beth]

:laugh01::laugh01:

 

[graffixcs]

Joejr14; To try to answer your questions,

I did mention that they should be placed appropriately, ie. close to the substrate, exactly where the snake DOES live.

The "environment" referred to is the conditions within the internal mass of a given artificial enclosure.

Benefits of knowing the internal 'ambient' temperature (lot of information);
Second "oppinion" of temps, not just relying on a single reading to control the entire environment.
Provide low level environment ambient temp. reading. (especially usefull for someone such as yourself that does not believe in a thermal gradient)
Indicator of thermal gradient effectiveness when positioned accordingly.
Indicator of energy transfer (heat) from outside forces, ie. air conditioning, direct sun light etc.
Help provide information as to why the snake is/isn't visible/cruising/basking (to be used in conjunction with the many other factors)
Indicator that a thermostat or thermometer may be faulty.

That is just to name a few. Granted this is not "critical" information. There are many ways to apply heat, and just as many ways to monitor it and its efficiency.

Serpwidgets; I agree with your comment that they have a use, when you know what you are looking at. They simply are not a "hot spot" indicator, which is my point of intention to point out but do have a place for those that choose to use them accordingly.

Some people will never use one, I am NOT saying they should or shouldn't, simply that I feel it is wrong to advise anyone NOT to use one. Most people agree a second oppinion can't hurt, hence my "theory" with a second 'type' of thermometer.

 

[graffixcs]

LOL, exactly... whatever works for you.

It just seems like this is some issue that is being taken very seriously somewhere (so much so that people need to "vent" over it???) and I don't get it.

As Chris would say: It's sjut thremeometers. :grin01:

I do apologise if this whole thing has been taken the wrong way, it is not my intention to offend or dismiss anyones practices, however I have read a lot of threads that flatly deny any value of these thermometers.

My intention was to offer anyone searching this topic to get both sides of the story to make up their own mind. :wavey:

 

[Roy Munson]

Hey, whatever works, but...

So it seems that stick-ons are reasonably effective when supplemental heat is provided with lamps. But are lamps really the recommended method for supplementing heat? From what I've read and heard, belly heat is preferable to lamps as corns don't really bask much in the wild.

I have a stick-on in my rosy boa's aquarium (my corns are in Sterilite). I hate it. I feel like I'm half-guessing when I use it. He's a healthy old pig, who hasn't refused or regurged in the 16 years I've had him, so I don't feel I have to monitor his temps and humidity that precisely.

I much prefer my digital thermometers/hygrometers, which give me current temp/humidity readings at a glance. They also provide the high and low readings since the unit was last cleared. I've tested mine against each other, and against my apartment's thermometer/thermostat, and they are very accurate.

 

[debcash]

Perfect timing...
I just posted a thread about the temps in my rack bins having a 7 degree difference (center bin at 87 degrees, lower outside bin at 80 degrees).

Then I saw this thread and it got me thinking about the three probe thermometers I am using to measure the temps. So I set them all side by side and left them for a few minutes - one reads 83.5, one reads 82.8 and one reads 85.4. (A 3.4 degree spread!!)
While that doesn't solve the whole problem - at least it gets me much closer!

It's amazing to me that there can be such a huge difference (and 2 the thermometers with the biggest range difference are identical).

 

[kathylove]

I HATE stick on thermometers!

Not because they are inaccurate, but because I get SO many emails from totally new keepers who were sold one by the local petshop. So they stick them on the middle of the glass someplace, as if the snakes would be floating around the tank like tropical fish! Of course newbies don't realize the huge temp variations there could be in just a few inches, and unfortunately, the pet shops don't either! Then when they start asking me questions and assuring me that their temps are perfect, I have to start at square one to see just where they are measuring the temps. And they are often amazed at how hot or cold their animals really are, once they move the temp stick around to where the snake actually lives.

If the newbie had a wall thermometer or probe, they would most likely put it someplace on the floor of the cage, or on a basking spot, not the air in the middle of the cage. The experienced keeper who has already thought things out can use whatever they want - it is the brand new person who is saddled with a bunch of pet shop purchases, and either NO info, or the WRONG info, that I am worried about. They can't be expected to make the proper intuitive, seemingly "common sense" choices that they will figure out later - that mostly comes with experience.

 

[PtDnsr]

I think Kathy hit it right on the dot with the fact that many people who do use the stick on kind place them in all the wrong locations. Sticking them in the upper corner or middle of the tank doesn't do much good. Sticking them in a bottom corner might help a little but your hot spot certainly isn't a corner (most likely). It's easier to recommend a probe thermometer because you can get the kind with two probes (therefore having one contraption for two measurements needed) and you don't have to try to explain why it can't be in the corner or floating in the middle.

~Katie

 

[Taceas]

I dunno, I must have missed the thread(s) where this was supposed to be a big deal.

You and me both. I don't like the stick-ons for the sheer fact that the adhesive with the humidity around here and snakes invariably coiling around it to "hang", that they fall off a few months after sticking them. That and the fact that petstore employees swear by them. Yeah they're cute and wiggly like googly-eye dolls, but for the same amount of money you could buy a small indoor/outdoor thermometer that works a heck of a lot better.

I guess I don't conform to the norm. I don't have a single thermometer in any of my corn snake enclosures. Not a one. 90% of my corns are in a room that's kept between 79-84* F at all times. The hatchlings are kept in the garage where its 73-85* F throughout the day. Both places have a temp remote that sends a signal to my thermometer in the house that'll beep if its too hot or too cold and I can take action to correct it.

I'm sure tempreture gradients are better in some undefined way. That way the snake can decide if its warm or cool. But right now that just isn't practical for me being a poor soul. So long as they're healthy, eating, growing, and shedding thats all that matters to me.

My BP tank has the digital thermometers, mainly for the hygrometer purposes.