The old okeetee vs. lookatee debate:

[Canadianmike]

I raised this question on another site and was wonder what the consensus was here:

I'm on both sides of the issue.

My main problem with the locality debate is:

In other reptiles people charge more for locality specific animal because there is an implied increase in value due to coloration (usually). There is an assumption on the part of the buyer that a Timika GTP looks different then an Aru GTP. If I sent anyone a Timika locality WC GTP before they open the box they already know what it will look like.

If I sent anyone a okeetee localty WC cornsnake they would receive 99% of the time a "normal phase" looking snake. When ever you see people ooing and awing over okeetees in online forums it is over okeetee phase snakes...so because corns are bred for looks what people are suggesting it that there is a ranking system for okeetees:

1: Most desirable: and okeetee phase corn with a okeetee locality heritage.
2: a lookatee
3: a normal looking corn with an okeetee locality

Is this true? Is it personal preference or is there a general opinion on the issue?

Also if a okeetee locality can't be distinguished from "normal" visually or genetically (yes and no)...what exactly is the argument over? Where the snakes parents were captured?? Why would that matter? Since okeetee phase corns don't look like WC locality okeetees what is the attraction of locality okeetees?

My other point/question is over "reverse okeetees" or "reverse okeetee phase" there are many breeders which specify they sell true locality okeetees yet also sell reverse okeetees. Amelanism has never appeared in okeetee lines so where did it come from (retorical question)? Is a snake with one normal parent still an okeetee if you follow the argument it can't be so should they be called reverse lookatees?

Are (reverse okeetees x okeetee) offspring okeetees het reverse okeetees or are they normals het amel?

 

[zwyatt]

Well, without reading your whole post (admittedly), I think a lot of it is all dependent on who you ask.

Some people are really into locality corns regardless of the look.

Some want locality corns that look like they "are supposed to look like." i.e. people who want a locality okeetee that looks like an okeetee phase.

Some people really just want a real stunning okeetee phase that has all the looks of what an true okeetee is advertised as supposed to have.

Personally, I've never been real interested in okeetees or other locality corns. Now some of the phase animals are starting to grow on me and I'm starting to appreciate an good okeetee phase more than I used to. I wouldn't be all that interested in acquiring true okeetee locality corns, because like I believe you mentioned, most don't look like an "okeetee phase" corn does.

You may or may not be interested in the recent debates over the Miami Locality/Phase issue. There are a couple of recent threads in the cultivar forum that should still be pretty near the top if you missed them.

Just my .02

 

[Canadianmike]

Thanks for the heads up....very interesting read. I see its the same discussion different locality/phase

 

[princess]

I don't care if the snake was WC on the hunt club, if it doesn't display the bold colouration and thick borders of the 'breed standard' then I would pick the 20 generation captive bred one any day purely on looks.

To me an Okeetee must display a certain look and that's what I'd look for (as a customer).

 

[Roy Munson]

I love this discussion because there are as many opinions as participants, and everyone's right. :grin01:

I'd pay a few extra bucks for a wc locality Okeetee, but it would have to be a beautiful Okeetee-Phase specimen as well.

 

[Tom Tuttle]

Sorry I didn't see this when I posted this thread. http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30803

 

[Serpwidgets]

What does ice cream mean?

When someone says "ice cream" does it mean vanilla? Or does it mean chocolate? Or some other flavor? Or can it mean whichever flavor is relevant in whichever context the conversation is taking place?

If you specifically want ice cream that is chocolate flavored, do you say "I want chocolate ice cream," or do you just ask for ice cream and then act offended if the person did not know you meant some specific flavor?

I think the usage of okeetee, like any other word that has multiple definitions, is subject to common sense. :wavey:

 

[abell82]

I think the usage of okeetee, like any other word that has multiple definitions, is subject to common sense. :wavey:

Common sense is something that I find more and more people are lacking. Not a flame at anyone in particular just an observation.

 

[larryg]

Words are tools, and people have to know exactly what they mean in order to properly use those tools. If you are a newbie and have no idea about the many possible meanings of 'Okeetee', then common sense doesn't really come into play.

Did you guys ever see the episode of the original Star Trek series called The Omega Glory? To make a long story short, it dealt with a post-holocaust society that apparently had evolved similarly to the USA, with an American-looking flag and what turned out to be the Constitution - but of course only Kirk could figure out that "Ee pleb neesta" was "We the people", when he heard it being read aloud, right before he was to be killed. The people had butchered and twisted the 'holy words' (as they called them) into something very different from what they really were. In the dog world, Dovermens and Rockwilders have come to replace Dobermans and Rottweilers, among the very ignorant. Sorry, but I don't care how many people want to say Dovermens and Rockwilders - IT'S WRONG.

 

[Serpwidgets]

Words are tools, and people have to know exactly what they mean in order to properly use those tools. If you are a newbie and have no idea about the many possible meanings of 'Okeetee', then common sense doesn't really come into play.

Out of that entire paragraph, the words newbie, many, and doesn't are the only ones that have a single meaning. The rest of them all have multiple meanings and are understood through an application of common sense.

If it is important to be clear that one of the definitions is applicable and the other(s) are not, then it is up to the people involved in that conversation(and specifically the person who finds the difference important) to make that distinction.

If you are a newbie and think that "okeetee" only has one meaning, then someone has misinformed you, and it is the fault of the person who told you that it can only mean one thing. It is not the fault of the entire population of people who use the word in two or three different ways. The person who "coined" the word never applied an exact definition. He never said, "Okeetee means only snakes that come from the Hunt Club itself and their direct descendents" nor did he say, "Okeetee means only snakes that exhibit the following color/pattern." Instead, it was inferred by different people, who perceived it differently and each used it in the way they chose to see it, which is why the word came to mean different things in the first place.

 

[jzal8]

Do you have a problem with my Dovermen???? :shrugs:

Just Joshin ya...

 

[Canadianmike]

multi purpose name?

I am arguing from ignorance so you will have to bear with me:

Don't you see any a problem with claiming that the name of okeetee can apply to a range of snakes depending on who you ask?

Name one other domesticated animal (google definiton of domesticated it applies to corns) it which the same industry/hobby name can be applied to a range of individuals...

If I told you I had a Labrador would you assume I had a dog from Labrador (bet you didn't know it was a land mass ), or a dog which meets the breed standard or a combination of the two. Or like you suggest does the name equally apply to all three possibilities?

Does an Okeetee, have to come from a specific geographic area, meet a phenotypic standard or is it a combination of the two?

 

[zwyatt]

Name one other domesticated animal (google definiton of domesticated it applies to corns) it which the same industry/hobby name can be applied to a range of individuals...

Well, once again it depends on your definition of a word. Google's definition of domestication may apply to cornsnakes, but they aren't necessarily truly domesticated.

Isn't it odd that just last week I sat through an hour long lecture on domestication and what it means to be domesticated? I sat through the whole thing thinking that corns must certainly apply, but they don't really. It depends on the person you ask. Ask anyone in the hobby and they will tell you they are. Ask most anyone else in the animal sciences world and they probably won't agree with you.

 

[Serpwidgets]

The key difference here is that the other domesticated animals you're using as a basis for comparison all have organizations that officiate the naming conventions. When someone says they have a Labrador, you can turn to a breed club which is supported by the people who breed them, and see what consensus there is on such a definition.

With corns, the names are not coming through a centralized organization, so the definitions arise only from usage by individuals, and different people will pick up their understanding of the word based on whom they heard it from and in what context, etc.

You will find the same thing with other species that are not "organized" too.

Name one other domesticated animal (google definiton of domesticated it applies to corns) it which the same industry/hobby name can be applied to a range of individuals...

Mice, rats, guppies, birds, koi, insects, arachnids? What about plants? Do they have official hobby/industry names for every variety of plant? I dunno, I don't work with them so I honestly couldn't say, but I'm sure there are plenty of other cases.

Don't you see any a problem with claiming that the name of okeetee can apply to a range of snakes depending on who you ask?

I think the real problem lies in an assumption that there is some "source of authority" that dictates an absolute definition, when that just isn't the reality of the situation. But yes, I agree that it would be nice if the word "okeetee" had the same meaning to everyone. The thing is, there's no way to force everyone using one or the other definition to stop using that word.

The alternative solution is to come up with a different word that specifically means one or the other, and use it only in that context so as to establish its meaning. Since it is nearly always people on the "it means locality" side of the debate that are concerned with having a single-definition word, it makes the most sense for them to use an alternative that currently has no other definition, such as "Hunt Club" or "locality specific Okeetee" or whatever it is they seem to think is appropriate, because they are not going to stop everyone else from using "okeetee" the way it's currently being used.

 

[Canadianmike]

standards?

Yes, I can see your point...its a bit much to expect 1000's of breeders of morphs to agree on a common morph name let alone "type".

As for other hobbies which breed color variants:

rats- yes there is/are both established type and names for each
mice- "
guppies- don't know
koi- 100% positive (Ever hear of mongreal koi...they do exist!)
birds- yes, scientific name for wild type, color varients are all named
insects- yes, scientifc name, besides the bees there is no selective breeding
arachnids- yes, scientific name, no selective breeding
plants- 100% positive, every color variant is named and many are protected by copyright.

 

[tricksterpup]

Yes, I can see your point...its a bit much to expect 1000's of breeders of morphs to agree on a common morph name let alone "type".

As for other hobbies which breed color variants:

rats- yes there is/are both established type and names for each
mice- "
guppies- don't know
koi- 100% positive (Ever hear of mongreal koi...they do exist!)
birds- yes, scientific name for wild type, color varients are all named
insects- yes, scientifc name, besides the bees there is no selective breeding
arachnids- yes, scientific name, no selective breeding
plants- 100% positive, every color variant is named and many are protected by copyright.

Guppies are pretty much Domesticated as well. There are color morphs with all types of names and these guys are pricey.
A great site to show this is http://www.showguppies.com/
Now here is a question that is off topic but still has been mentioned here. Why isn't there an organization for Corns and other Reptiles? For guppies there is the
IFGA: International Fancy Guppy Association that deals with this type of stuff and also they have a best in show. Here is there mission statement.

The mission of the IFGA Web Site is to provide IFGA members with the most up to date information on sanctioned clubs, show schedules, show rules, show results and class point leaders by updating the web pages in a timely manner, as well as providing an informative monthly "eBulletin". It is also our purpose to encourage new members to the hobby by providing local club contact persons, information on the guppy hobby, a "Beginners Corner" and responding to questions submitted by email to the web page. Information on the IFGA as an organization, its officers, history and other pertinent data will also be provided.

Now I am just a newbie into this hobby but from my lurking here, many of the TOP herpers here for Corns post on this site. What are their feelings on this? Why hasn't anyone tried any thing like this? Is there anything like this for Corns? I still find this discussion an enjoyable read though.

 

[larryg]

Are we to infer that Serpwidgets was there, back when the term Okeetee was first applied to a Cornsnake? I will go ahead and say that I seriously doubt that.

I personally favor deferring to experts, instead of running around, saying "everybody can use the words however they want!" If we are to CORRECTLY use the tools/words, we should realize that Okeetee Phase has one meaning, while Okeetee Locality has another. Otherwise it's Ee Pleb Neesta, Rockwilders, etc. The full name of the breed Labrador Retriever is, of course, as such. Whether or not someone may or may not know what you mean by "Labrador" is meaningless. K? L8r.

 

[Billybobob]

I personally favor deferring to experts, instead of running around, saying "everybody can use the words however they want!" If we are to CORRECTLY use the tools/words, we should realize that Okeetee Phase has one meaning, while Okeetee Locality has another.

While Okeetee phase has only one meaning, The term Okeetee locality has several, like only from the hunt club, or from the hunt club and the immediate surrounding areas, or from all of jasper county, and even from within a few miles of jasper county. Unless there is a true consensus about what area a locality okeetee can come from the hole locality thing is useless. I would like to see a firm definition of the actual location that okeetees come from because from what I have seen everyone has a different idea about the boundaries of the "Okeetee zone". this is just my opinion.

By the way, I feel that as long as it if found within jasper county it could be considered a locality okeetee but if I were to work with locality okeetees I would call them Jasper county corns just to get rid of this hole locality/phase debate.

 

[Serpwidgets]

Yes, I can see your point...its a bit much to expect 1000's of breeders of morphs to agree on a common morph name let alone "type".

As for other hobbies which breed color variants:

rats- yes there is/are both established type and names for each
mice- "
guppies- don't know
koi- 100% positive (Ever hear of mongreal koi...they do exist!)
birds- yes, scientific name for wild type, color varients are all named
insects- yes, scientifc name, besides the bees there is no selective breeding
arachnids- yes, scientific name, no selective breeding
plants- 100% positive, every color variant is named and many are protected by copyright.

There are people breeding mantids and tarantulas and scorpions. I don't know if they have "official" names for them, but I've seen a lot of different labels on tarantulas. If they don't have variants within the same species already, I'd bet they will soon. I'm pretty sure that there are variants of birds that go further than species names. :shrugs: But what it really boils down to is that any species with standard names are like that because there's a formal organization handling that.

The other thing is that there's a big difference between selectively bred and simple genetic morphs. There are "standard" names for the genes and combo morphs just like there are in mice. Snow, ghost, etc all have the same meaning across the board.

How many selectively bred variations of mice are there? The ones I've seen with names (other than Swiss Webster) are simple genetic combinations. The question is, if mice have standardized names for selectively-bred variations, where did those names come from and how does everyone know what those names mean? (I'm assuming it's some type of breed club, etc.)

The other major difference between corns and dogs is that you don't breed two collies together and get a doberman. You can breed two snakes that don't look like okeetees and get okeetee looking offspring, and vice versa. This is pretty much true for any of the selectively bred variations right now, because they haven't been bred for lots and lots of generations for their specific types.

They aren't yet "breeds" in the same way that dogs or other intensively-bred species are. So, if you were to apply some standard of "these selectively bred snakes are trundlefart corns, and only offspring of trundlefart X trundlefart can be called trundlefarts" within a generation you would have snakes of all kinds of different looks that all are "true trundlefart corns." If you can't pick them out of a crowd, then having a standardized name for them will still not guarantee that when you buy a trundlefart corn you will know what to expect.

 

[Serpwidgets]

Now I am just a newbie into this hobby but from my lurking here, many of the TOP herpers here for Corns post on this site. What are their feelings on this? Why hasn't anyone tried any thing like this? Is there anything like this for Corns? I still find this discussion an enjoyable read though.

The one part of that equation that exists right now is the ACR, which is at least a step in that direction. It allows everyone to connect their stock on the same family tree, so that at least we can see how our corns are related to each other and start building substantial pedigrees. Without that, there's really no way to say "these corns are all from the same bloodlines and should be recognized as such."

However, the ACR was specifically designed to NOT be a standard-setting organization. The idea was to make it so that everyone can use it, and it is not telling other people how to name their corns, as this will only make sure that a lot of people wouldn't participate.

I think it would be great to have shows and competitions. This is the only way to set any standards that will have any weight, and so that it's set and supported by the community of breeders. As it is, the biggest names don't really need someone else to sanction their naming conventions, because their snakes sell on their own reputation. I think that a lot of them would see this as an opportunity to lose control over writing their own standards.

The other thing is that we've only scratched the surface on what can be done with selective breeding. People are still mixing all kinds of lines together, and adding wild-caught snakes to the gene pool, too. If only specific "types" were recognized it would devalue everything else, meaning that it would be bad business to cross two different lines and create "mutts." It would stifle much of the exploration of the potential that selective breeding has to offer right now.