The Unix/Linux Thread

[pridecity]

I thought we'd continue this conversation in a new thread instead of in the "Post your desktop" thread. Mrs. Z posted her desktop and I asked what her operating system was because I didn't recognize the taskbar. She said it was a flavor of Linux and I asked a few questions. Dead Mouse answered them as seen below:

Originally Posted by pridecity
I wanted to try Linux, but was so confused by the choices. I think I decided my Windows 98 probably couldn't handle even that.

First off, Linux is simply an operating system like Windows 98 is. In other words, it's of no consequence what Win98 can handle as Linux would be running within it's own environment (unless of course you were running an emulator but that's a whole nother topic).

Regardless of the hardware constraints that usually tie most Windows versions to a specific minimum of hardware requirements, Linux, for the most part, can run on almost any computer regardless of how old or slow it may appear. Heck, I've been running Linux on a 15 year old computer for the last 11 years that has a 100mhz Pentium with only 32 megs of RAM. Obviously in today's world, this computer may seem obsolete but it runs my network and is basically a glorified and heavily customized firewall/router.

With that said, Linux is not the panacea to replacing other operating systems. I've been using Linux off and on for 15 years but it's never been able to replace the need for having a Windows system because it cannot natively run Windows applications without the use of, you guessed it, an emulator. Plus, older computers are so cheap these days, you can easily get one just to slap Linux on it and give it a try without replacing your current setup.

While I'm not hip to all the new Linux distros that are out there (I'm an old school Slackware hacker for those that know what that means ), Linux can be a bit daunting at first if you are not familiar with such systems which is where a good reference book or two can come in handy.

Quote:
Do you like Linux better than Mac? I love my Mac, minus the fact that I can't use Paint Shop Pro 7 on it and I can't afford Photoshop (the full figure, not elements).
Depending on what type of Mac OS you are running, Apple's OS X is basically a flavor of Unix (which is basically what Linux is). I'm not sure about the portability of certain Unix/Linux apps for OS X, but I'm sure that if you can get your hands on the source code for whatever app it is you want, you can probably compile for your system to get it to work properly.

In regards to Photoshop, there's a free graphics program called GIMP that might be worth checking out.

Having said all of that, if your Mac and Vista computers are doing what you want them to do, don't worry about Linux. After all, Operating Systems are merely tools that you use to do work. You use the right tool for the job. Linux is merely a different tool to do some of the same type of stuff but in a different way.

And don't believe the hype that Linux is far more secure than Windows or OS X, all operating systems are prone to break-ins and other malicious intrusions like viruses and the such when not setup properly, I should know, I used to keep company with a bunch of Black Hats back in the day. The only reason why Windows gets a bad rap more frequently is that it's the most widely used commercial operating system in the world, so statistically it's going to bear the brunt of the majority of break-ins and such especially considering the fact that the overwhelming majority of Windows users do not know how to tweak or modify their systems to get the best type of security out of it.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program..

 

[pridecity]

My Mac is one of the newest. OS X Snow Leopard. Does that mean anything to you? If so, what ways is it like Linux? I love my Mac so maybe if it's not too different from Linux, I might find a few parts for my other tower and try it out. I'd hate to lose my Vista on my 98 if I hated Linux and would rather not use an emulator.

As for Gimp, I have it, but hate it. I learned on PSP 7, and can barely tolerate PS, but know that PS is the top if you want to be taken seriously. I do plan on getting a Win 7 desktop eventually. I want to be familiar with as many operating systems as possible because I'm the "go-to" for my family. I'm not the best techie, but can fix most things that my family screws up on their computers.

I was told by a Mac Sales guy that I would never need a anti-virus for my Mac. Guess who downloaded an anti-virus anyway? I believe in the whole "better to have it and not need it" thing.

If one were to convert on older computer to Linux, is there a flavor that is best recommended? Also, will I need an actual Windows install disk even if I don't plan on using a duel OS? I don't currently have a Windows install disk, but I'm sure I could find the money to buy one if needed.

 

[tsst]

I have used both Suse and Redhat in the past. The biggest difference I found in Linux distros is features and gui look.

 

[JNugent]

Pretty much. I've used Red Hat, Ubuntu and Mandrake. They pretty much run the same, and you can usually choose whether you want the GNU or KDE gui. I"m running OS X snow leopard now and have no complaints though, so pretty much just have a linux machine to play around with and make myself feel like one of those uber cool Linux users and talk the talk.

 

[Irish Eyes (Mrs.Z)]

I will have my husband look at this thread and see if he wants to add anything to the discussion. He's the IT geek in this household (he works as a Level IV Unix SysAdmin/Engineer, with the title of Subject Matter Expert just added to his title by his employer). He only recently (about 2 years ago) talked me into switching from Windows to Ubuntu. I must admit--I'm glad I did! However, I wouldn't have ever tried to replace Windows and/or set up Ubuntu on my own. I just don't know enough about the workings of OSs to even try .

 

[pridecity]

GNU? Is that like an emu? Lol. I guess I'm more rusty on my computer lingo than I thought. What is a KDE gui and what is the difference between that and GNU?

 

[JNugent]

They're just different styles if you will. KDE= K Desktop environment. GNU literally means GNU's not Unix. Gui= graphical user interface. They both do the same things, just look a little different.

 

[quixoft]

Ubuntu is probably the most popular at the moment. It's easy to install and very stable.

Fedora(Red Hat) is cutting edge but more buggy due to it being the latest and greatest.

Debian is always solid.

I would recommend Ubuntu for a Linux newbie.

 

[quixoft]

Oh, and there multiple window GUIs(Graphical User Interface) for linux. In a nutshell that's the thing that makes your windows, icons, and makes everything pretty for you to use.

The two main ones are Gnome and KDE. Gnome is more stable, KDE has more features and is prettier yet less stable. KDE is very resource intensive too. But I like it. ;-)

 

[Irish Eyes (Mrs.Z)]

Ubuntu is probably the most popular at the moment. It's easy to install and very stable.

Fedora(Red Hat) is cutting edge but more buggy due to it being the latest and greatest.

Debian is always solid.

I would recommend Ubuntu for a Linux newbie.

Which is exactly why it's perfect for me .

 

[wstphal]

My new Unix box runs Ubuntu for the reasons above. I considered Red Hat but you already know why I dont' have it. Oh, and Deadmouse, I remember Slackware! Shows my age, doesn't it?

Edit: How many remember command line Unix??

 

[DeadMouse]

Oh, and Deadmouse, I remember Slackware! Shows my age, doesn't it?

Edit: How many remember command line Unix??

Well, Slackware is still alive and well. I think the reason that Slackware has never gotten the attention as all of the other distros is that because it is more of a hackers system (which is why I've always used it) that has not always been the easiest system to use nor had all the eye-candy garbage tagged onto it which seems to attract so many users these days. Maybe that's all changed by now, I haven't kept up with every new release. :shrugs: Actually, I've been using Slackware since release 1.1 (which I got by pure accident when I bought a book on understanding the Web when the best connection you could get was from a 14.4 modem). So if that is any indicator of age, I too am in trouble.

I remember the command line because that's how I still primarily interact with my Linux box. While I do run X Windows from time to time, it's merely for using multiple xterm sessions since Alt-F'ing into multiple consoles from the command line can be a pain when I'm comparing code.

And for those that think a hacker is one who breaks into systems and unleashes viruses on the world, that is not the correct definition of what a hacker really is. The people that break into systems and wreak havoc upon the world are known as crackers, not hackers.

While I do not wish to engage in conversations regarding which is better, whether it's regarding OS's or even Distros, I will address a couple of things that were said.

I have used both Suse and Redhat in the past. The biggest difference I found in Linux distros is features and gui look.

The only reason that seems to be the biggest difference to you is because you are more than likely using the system as a basic end-user, no offense meant. I've tried and used many different Unix/Linux distros including Slackware, Redhat (before Fedora), Storm, Debian and FreeBSD to name a few. Of those, I really liked Storm the best even though it's lifespan was a very short one and I was never really sure of the reasons why, but I digress... The real differences between many of these distros are (or were): their package managers (how apps are compressed, installed/uninstalled and managed), the scripts that are written that run the system, the overall installation process and default setups, and of course the already mentioned overall look and feel of the system. To me, the most important things are the package managers and how the scripts are written and how tweakable they are mainly because I like to have ultimate control over my system as well as understanding what is going on.

GNU? Is that like an emu? Lol. I guess I'm more rusty on my computer lingo than I thought. What is a KDE gui and what is the difference between that and GNU?

GNU is basically a society whose main goal is to have a free Unix OS and Apps out there for the general public. GNU is not a GUI, they are an organization more or less.

KDE and Gnome are basically the primarily used GUI's that create a Windows type of environment for ease of use. While I am unaware of how much they have progressed, they all used to basically be window managers that ran on top of the X Windows system which was the backbone of a GUI interface for Unix/Linux. This probably isn't the case anymore as I'm sure those systems have long since migrated themselves away from needing or using the X Windows system. For me though, I'm still very old school and use X Windows and a basic windows manager like WindowMaker. After all, what else am I going to use on a 15 year old computer?

I have to admit my ignorance though of what's new in the Linux world as I removed myself many years ago from the Linux community because I got tired of the zealotry and politics that were really starting to plague the community and all the newbies coming into the scene. I used to spend a lot of my time and energy on EFNet in chans like #Linux, #slackware, #C and of course #hackerz. The days of IRC and Usenet are pretty much dead and forgotten in todays world of web based forums and such. While there are just as many, if not more, intelligent people and conversations taking place on the internet, there's also a lot more garbage and misinformation to wade through as well. I've pretty much gotten out of computer consulting and now only manage my insane little network for my own purposes and satisfaction.

Like I stated before, no one OS or distro is going to be the end-all-be-all for everybody. All things considered, only you, the individual, can determine what your needs are and what works best for you in terms of ease and functionality. Don't buy into any hype and research everything you can before taking the plunge into confining yourself into any one system. Like I stated before, computers can be found very cheaply on Craigslist these days if you want something to tinker and learn on. It's a far cheaper investment than the hours of frustrating you'll spend when trying to migrate to and learn a new system.

If you merely invest your time and efforts into a system that makes your life more difficult only to look and feel cool by using something a little more exotic than your friends and neighbors, then IMHO you are a fool for doing so. If your quest is for knowledge and the understanding of computer systems, then you have entered into a realm that will continue to amaze and astonish you as it continues to evolve. If the latter is your endeavor, then I wish you all the best in your quest for knowledge as it's a vast one.

 

[wstphal]

Actually, I've been using Slackware since release 1.1 (which I got by pure accident when I bought a book on understanding the Web when the best connection you could get was from a 14.4 modem). So if that is any indicator of age, I too am in trouble.

I too remember those modem days! And typing arcane modem code.

And for those that think a hacker is one who breaks into systems and unleashes viruses on the world, that is not the correct definition of what a hacker really is. The people that break into systems and wreak havoc upon the world are known as crackers, not hackers.

Agreed. Although a certain amount of breaking into systems, not to unleash harm, but to see if you can and then leave, doing no damage and not taking anything with you but knowledge, is part of MY definition of a hacker. YMMV.

I've tried and used many different Unix/Linux distros including Slackware, Redhat (before Fedora), Storm, Debian and FreeBSD to name a few. <snippage> The real differences between many of these distros are (or were): their package managers (how apps are compressed, installed/uninstalled and managed), the scripts that are written that run the system, the overall installation process and default setups, and of course the already mentioned overall look and feel of the system. To me, the most important things are the package managers and how the scripts are written and how tweakable they are mainly because I like to have ultimate control over my system as well as understanding what is going on.

Ooh, I remember FreeBSD! And yeah, UNDERSTANDING is a key element. I want to have time to dig into the undersides of the software I use. Eventually I hope to get back to that.

I learned to code in 1986. You?

I used to spend a lot of my time and energy on EFNet in chans like #Linux, #slackware, #C and of course #hackerz. The days of IRC and Usenet are pretty much dead and forgotten in todays world of web based forums and such.

I wasn't a chan person, but I remember Usenet well.

If you merely invest your time and efforts into a system that makes your life more difficult only to look and feel cool by using something a little more exotic than your friends and neighbors, then IMHO you are a fool for doing so. If your quest is for knowledge and the understanding of computer systems, then you have entered into a realm that will continue to amaze and astonish you as it continues to evolve. If the latter is your endeavor, then I wish you all the best in your quest for knowledge as it's a vast one.

But the initial investment in time to "look cool" can turn into something else. I signed up for my first computer science class for the purposes of looking cool and wound up loving what I was doing, and although I never worked in the industry, I have kept the cognitive structures and used them ever since in every endeavor I have undertaken. Modula2 was good to me, and I am grateful.

 

[DeadMouse]

I too remember those modem days! And typing arcane modem code.

We've sure progressed a lot from those days!

Agreed. Although a certain amount of breaking into systems, not to unleash harm, but to see if you can and then leave, doing no damage and not taking anything with you but knowledge, is part of MY definition of a hacker. YMMV.

This is actually a true statement but one that was invariably delegated to the status of what a cracker is when it came to the point that simply even trespassing into a system was a major felony. After all, my interest into computers was how they worked hardware and software-wise anyways with no real interest in breaking into other systems unless it was on a type of controlled honeypot type of system just for those intents and purposes. Yeah, I've wardialed around to see what systems I could find and did some of that stuff, but nothing to the extent of actually breaking into a system. I only became involved with a specific group of hackers/crackers when one of them took a liking to me after noticing all of the time I spent helping people in #slackware and #Linux, so I was invited to join their little group and I willingly did so just to gain more knowledge and understanding of the inner-workings of how these groups operated as well as learning to secure my own systems. For the most part, this group I belonged to was fairly harmless although there were a few individuals who had a penchant (as well as international warrants) for the occasional intrusion. These people were some of the most intelligent people I knew and it was unfortunate that their knowledge and intellect often caught them on the wrong side of the law.

But to me the real hackers were always people like Donald Knuth, Kernigan and Ritchie, Richard Stallman and all those other people who were into coding and developing systems and software.

And yes, I still do pick up the occasional copy of 2600 magazine.

Ooh, I remember FreeBSD! And yeah, UNDERSTANDING is a key element. I want to have time to dig into the undersides of the software I use. Eventually I hope to get back to that.

Me too actually. I was really into programming in C several years ago as well as trying to learn Assembly. My interests have always been AI and Genetic Programming although I lack the scholastic backing and have always had a difficult time with the understanding of some of the algorithmic math that goes along with such topics.

Several months ago I also purchased a Sun Cobalt Qube 3 with the intent on upgrading my ancient firewall into something a little more unique and better. Unfortunately, I've just not had the time to mess with it since I got it.

I learned to code in 1986. You?

I taught myself BASIC on an Atari 400 that I bought new at a Fedco with my hard earned cash picking weeds out of a neighbors rose garden over the course of a summer. My best friend and I would spend an entire weekend trying to code in a textual AD&D type of game only to have to use a flaky cassette tape to back up all of our work which was usually 50% corrupt upon reupping the code. It was a horrible system to learn from as well as work with but it was all I could afford at the time. :smash:

I did not come from a family unit that was conducive to my intellectual aptitude, these interests in all things computer related were quickly forgotten when I ran away from home at 15 to start my life anew with my Grandparents.

I didn't get back into computers until about '93-94 which was kind of a fluke as I only bought one when my friend was buying one to do his college homework on. I instantly got hooked again and before I knew it, I was learning how to create dual boot systems on an 800 meg hard drive so that I could run DOS/Win 3.1 along with Slackware and doing all of this other weirdness that none of my other computer peers else seemed privy to. Once ethernet cards became more affordable (I think for about $100), I then bought another computer just so that I could hook them up using a crossover cable (as routers were still unaffordable for the average consumer) and play with that. Oh, those were the good ol' days...

I wasn't a chan person, but I remember Usenet well.

I really miss the days of IRC and Usenet actually. There was just something different about them that you just don't get with todays internet experience. Perhaps it's just nostalgia I'm feeling and that sense of wonderment when I used to be on those systems, but it sure was different.

But the initial investment in time to "look cool" can turn into something else. I signed up for my first computer science class for the purposes of looking cool and wound up loving what I was doing, and although I never worked in the industry, I have kept the cognitive structures and used them ever since in every endeavor I have undertaken. Modula2 was good to me, and I am grateful.

Well, this is true to a point. But I've always found that the motivating factor of progressing past the point of wanting to look cool has often created a type of zealotry with the majority of people. For example, many times I would help and tutor people in #Linux that got hooked on the buzz of it all and after several months of converting completely from Windows to Linux, then all they would do was talk down to anybody that still used Windows, even me (even though I taught them and used both systems on my network). The want of looking cool was often times more of a trendy thing and developed certain prejudices and mindsets that often blinded them to what was really important, that all systems are merely tools to use, nothing more. I'm not saying that this was true of everybody that got involved into something just because it was trendy, but it seemed from my vantage point at the time to be more the rule than the exception.

Anywho, I am always happy when people take an interest in such things as I'm a firm believe that everybody has something to contribute even if it's just an informed opinion or suggestion. That's how we evolve technologically and intellectually.

 

[wstphal]

Yeah, I've wardialed around to see what systems I could find and did some of that stuff, but nothing to the extent of actually breaking into a system.

The point was only to learn HOW, to increase one's knowledge, as far as I was concerned. Although borrowing compiler time on an idle machine at 3 AM was a reasonable thought too...

But to me the real hackers were always people like Donald Knuth, Kernigan and Ritchie, Richard Stallman and all those other people who were into coding and developing systems and software.

And a real hack is finding out a way to do it in fewer bytes!

Well, this is true to a point. But I've always found that the motivating factor of progressing past the point of wanting to look cool has often created a type of zealotry with the majority of people.

That's another, and stupid, form of trying to look cool. "I'm cooler than you are! Neener, neener, neerer!" Dumb. Waste of bytes.

 

[DeadMouse]

a real hack is finding out a way to do it in fewer bytes!

And fewer CPU cycles! :dancer:

That's another, and stupid, form of trying to look cool. "I'm cooler than you are! Neener, neener, neerer!" Dumb. Waste of bytes.

Unfortunately, that mentality often prevails in all things of interest and status, even reptile/snake keeping. :headbang:

I'm glad that you understand where I am coming from and are on the same wavelength.

 

[tsst]

...The only reason that seems to be the biggest difference to you is because you are more than likely using the system as a basic end-user, no offense meant. I've tried and used many different Unix/Linux distros including Slackware, Redhat (before Fedora), Storm, Debian and FreeBSD to name a few. Of those, I really liked Storm the best even though it's lifespan was a very short one and I was never really sure of the reasons why, but I digress... The real differences between many of these distros are (or were): their package managers (how apps are compressed, installed/uninstalled and managed), the scripts that are written that run the system, the overall installation process and default setups, and of course the already mentioned overall look and feel of the system. To me, the most important things are the package managers and how the scripts are written and how tweakable they are mainly because I like to have ultimate control over my system as well as understanding what is going on. ...

No offense taken. Yes I used it mainly as an end-user toy machine. I ended up spending too much time tweaking instead of using. I still have a Linux machine but have not used it much in a few years.
(too much time and mess playing with tarballs :grin01

 

[quixoft]

I use my Ubuntu box strictly for Java development. Although I do have a really old OpenBSD system setup on an old 486 that I use for a firewall. That sucker has been running for about 10 years now with reboots only when my net connection blew up. :eek1:

 

[wstphal]

And fewer CPU cycles! :dancer:

Yeah, nowadays cycles probably matter more than bytes!

Unfortunately, that mentality often prevails in all things of interest and status, even reptile/snake keeping. :headbang:

I'm glad that you understand where I am coming from and are on the same wavelength.

Oh yeah. I am pretty much over status games. I like knowing, learning & understanding, whether they bring me status or not! Oh, and being able to take non-living things, like code or machines, APART!