Thermoregulate or DIE!!!

[TWGarland]

Ok, so i have a question. Not just about corns, but reptiles/amphibians in general.

Whilst i think i understand thermoregulation, "A cold blooded animal choosing its optimum body temperature based on its physiological requirements at the time" maybe????

There are some things about it i just don't get,

Why do we all have thermostats on our vivarium UTH's to control temperatures within a degree or two?... YES so our animals don't get burns i hear you say, easy! BUT why do they get the burns?

I think theres something i'm missing with regards to thermoregulation here. An animal that can accurately pick its own required body temperature to within a degree or two will also quite happily attach itself to a boiling heat bulb (which gets rid of the frog in slowly boiling water theory) or sit unmoving on a v.hot/slowly getting hotter UTH? I mean a snake in the wild wouldn't let itself boil in the sun if it could find shelter (thermoregulation), so why would a snake sit on a boiling UTH when it has access to a cold hide? Cos we've all seen hurrendous pics of what can happen..

Its probably obvious, but i don't get it at the moment, HELP!

 

[snakewispera snr]

Really good question.....I've also wondered about that.
I can see accidentally touching a ceramic heater could happen if it was unguarded.
But to sit and boil....

 

[Maize411]

My guess would be that the snake is working off of instinct...Something inside of it is telling it it needs to warm up. But the only warm space is a very hot surface...The snake not seeing any other logic (not being able to do the logic shall I say..) goes over to the hot surface and sits there until it's body feels it has warmed up enough so that it can move. I'm thinking maybe to think of it like the way some people are addicted to chocolate...Yes we tell ourselves..."I know I shouldn't have this...It won't help me at all"..but our minds are telling us "just one piece..Have a little bit..It won't kill you"...I'm sure that's not what's exactly going on inside the snake's brain..but I'm sure the snake will give into instinct before it considers it's own safety...Just my thought...

 

[whippet]

honestly..I wonder if our snakes are so inbred and domesticated that they become well....stupid. *ducks from thrown stones* I mean think about it. Dogs are dumber than wolves, cows are dumber than buffalo, and so on and so on. Most of the snakes we keep are CB for several generations... so maybe that is a factor in Some *not every* case.

 

[Snake Dave]

honestly..I wonder if our snakes are so inbred and domesticated that they become well....stupid. *ducks from thrown stones* I mean think about it. Dogs are dumber than wolves, cows are dumber than buffalo, and so on and so on. Most of the snakes we keep are CB for several generations... so maybe that is a factor in Some *not every* case.

Snakes aren't anywhere near domesticated yet, as far as I know. But snakes aren't the smartest animals anyway, whether they've been CB or not, they're mostly instinct. Instinct would tell them to not burn themselves in theory. Maybe it's because the heat is being provided without light, so perhaps they don't recognise it as well. As the shade will have a lower level of light than the warm, basking area obviously. Just a theory.

Another answer could be that maybe they have reduced sensitivity on the ventral scales, which is obviously the point which meets the heat. However, if they can detect subtle changes in heat and thermoregulate from that, and react to changes or touch, that sort of nulls that theory.

Good question

All the best

David

 

[DogStar5988]

I would guess its a mix of whats been said so far. I think in the wild a snake would have a choice between many different temperature sun-heated rocks. But in a viv they really only have one source for heat if thats too hot they really don't have a alternative. Also I think we as humans have overcomplicated things like we always do, in the way we control their heat so precisely. On the other hand however given that they only have one source for heat I guess it would have to be at the right temp to work, although whos to say thats the temp the snake would pick given a choice.

---Kenny

 

[TWGarland]

Thanks for the replies so far guys, i think i get what your saying, that an animal given no other choice will be driven to thermoregulate through instinct and so will gather heat from ANY source till its body is warm enough, even if its skin burns in the mean time.

I've been looking into it abit more too,

Some people think that when a cold blooded animal is thermoregulating it is trying to raise internal body temperatures through and through. Combine this with a less sensitive skin and that can lead to an animal still feeling cold internally, but in actuality be burning its outer skin :shrugs: Makes sense to me to an extent, this might help explain why you don't see this sort of thing happen naturally, because in nature/the wild you usually don't have baking hot objects...

BUT, it doesn't quite explain it all still for me.
What about forest fires where animals (reptiles/amphibians included) will flee using any method available to them, ie. burrowing or trying to move out of the way? That indicates that there is at least some association between fire/heat/colour and pain/death? What do you think?

,Or what about Sidewinders, haven't they developed that whole way of movement to combat burns from hot sand? I mean its not quite the same, i know, as one is evolution and the other is a snake being burned through poor husbandry for example, but to develop that behaviour/way of moving it must have been able to tell it was burning? :shrugs:

 

[toyah]

I mean a snake in the wild wouldn't let itself boil in the sun if it could find shelter (thermoregulation), so why would a snake sit on a boiling UTH when it has access to a cold hide? Cos we've all seen hurrendous pics of what can happen..

I have to say though ... it does happen, but how often? In my experience if the hot end of a tank is too hot, a corn has the intelligence to move away, even if that means sitting at the cool end and ending up with a regurge (I think many regurges are caused by the warm end being too warm, so the corn moves away from it).

I have seen more photos of burns with heavy bodied snakes, like royals - big, stupid, lazy snakes (I do love my royals, don't get me wrong). I imagine it takes much longer for their internal temperature to get right, being so thick in the body. While their bellies are warm, their backs are still too cool so they don't move.

I assume this is why hot rocks tend to be bad for snakes - because the entire snake isn't touching it, so they never get up to a good "average" body temperature, so they don't move away.

When there's a forest fire, then the entire animal is hot not just one side of it, plus of course aside from the heat you've got the smell of the smoke and the smell of danger which most animals seem to respond to, even when humans have no idea what the hell is going on...

 

[TWGarland]

www.anapsid.org/warwickthermo.html


:laugh01: Now that is one uber link! :crazy02: Had to share that, what do you guys think? Makes sense to me Yaaay.

 

[TWGarland]

Thats taken me like two days to find!! Doh! Like the time i forgot what the Butler in the fresh prince of Belair was called, couldn't stop thinking about it :rofl:

 

[snakewispera snr]

www.anapsid.org/warwickthermo.html


:laugh01: Now that is one uber link! :crazy02: Had to share that, what do you guys think? Makes sense to me Yaaay.

You asked the question then you answered it....Dedicated research.....Reps coming your way...

 

[cassandra]

I would guess its a mix of whats been said so far. I think in the wild a snake would have a choice between many different temperature sun-heated rocks. But in a viv they really only have one source for heat if thats too hot they really don't have a alternative. Also I think we as humans have overcomplicated things like we always do, in the way we control their heat so precisely. On the other hand however given that they only have one source for heat I guess it would have to be at the right temp to work, although whos to say thats the temp the snake would pick given a choice.

---Kenny

Agree 100%. In the wild, the animal can choose the perfect combination of desired temperature, humidity and safety. In captivity, their choices are severly limited by us. We have to take the information scientists and herp keepers before us have gathered about the optimal conditions for these animals and try to provide our slithery friends the best we can.

The unfortunate snakes that I've heard about on various message boards that have had minor burns all the way to needing euthanasia due to severe necrosis were all due to human error in the habitat.