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Thinking Very Hard About Breeding My Own Mice...

If you can't get lab blocks, do you have a farm feed store nearby? I use sow roll (pig feed!) for my mice as their staple diet. I tried all different sorts of seed mixes and they wasted an awful lot by only eating the bits they liked, plus I felt it meant they weren't getting a balanced diet. Sow rolls are virtually the same nutritional mix as lab blocks.
 
I have no idea. I know nearby there's an area with a lot of ranches, but I've no idea if they have pigs, or sow feed. However, there is this Forti-Diet, and the picture clearly shows pellet-shaped food. Not only does it have one thing for them to eat (instead of the seed mixture type food that I used for my past pet rats and mice), but a 3lb bag is cheaper than the 4.5lb bag (6 USD vs 12 USD? Yeahhh...) of other stuff.


Should I use the Forti-Diet so I can use an overhead feeder, save a few bucks, and get them to eat without picking a favorite seed?
 
I couldn't see a nutritional analysis there, if you can and it's comparable to lab blocks, I'd say go for it.
 
Well, there is this:


Ingredients
Ground Yellow Corn, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Ground Wheat, Ground Oats, Ground Peanuts, Sun-cured Alfalfa Meal, Ground Flax Seed, Dried Cane Molasses, Lignin Sulfonate, Corn Sugar, Calcium Carbonate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Ground Rice, Salt, Soy Oil, Brewers Dried Yeast, Dried Beet Pulp, Whole Cell Algae Meal (source of Omega-3 DHA), Fructooligosaccharide, DL-Methionine, Yeast Extract, Yucca Schidigera Extract, L-Lysine, Vitamin A Supplement, Choline Chloride, Mixed Tocopherols (a preservative), Ferrous Sulfate, Riboflavin Supplement, Manganous Oxide, Zinc Oxide, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of vitamin K activity), Copper Sulfate, L-Carnitine, Rosemary Extract, Citric Acid, Cholecalciferol (source of vitamin D3), Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Calcium Iodate, Biotin, Dried Bacillus licheniformis Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product, Cobalt Carbonate, Sodium Selenite, Natural Flavoring. Allergen information: Contains peanuts and/or other tree nuts.


Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min.) 21.0%, Crude Fat (min.) 4.5%, Crude Fiber (max.) 7.0%, Moisture (max.) 12.0%, Omega-3 Fatty Acids (min.) 0.4%, Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) (min.) 0.04%, Total Bacillus Species (min.) 100,000 CFU/gram.



No idea what it means though.
 
I've been using the forti-diet myself for now, until I get ahold of probably some mazuri. Mostly because I've been able to get the forti diet really cheap at the local fleet farm (about 1 dollar a pound, after coupon, but I think the coupons are gone now), and I need to get to a mazuri dealer.

Here's a link to mazuri dealer somewhat in your area.
https://www.mazuri.com/Home.asp?Products=2&Opening=4
 
20% protein may be a little high, mine breed well on 17%, but then you may get super-breeders!
 
Doesn't bother me a bit. XD



Thanks ZoologyGirl. I'll see if I can get to check them out, but my mom and I are both sick, especially her, so we're not going anywhere real far... XD
 
If you're only breeding a small amount why can't you treat them at least a little humanely?...I'm sorry but I really don't respect people who breed ANY animal to death, it's just as bad if not worse then letting a mouse suffer live....I'm sorry if this isn't what your saying but this is what it sounds like. They don't have to be treated like pets but should at least have an ok life, in my opinion healthy food = healthy snakes. I'll post my opinion and you can either listen or not care but at least I've said something...

- So to start I figured I'd get one male and two females. Thing is, I hear that some breeders inbreed their feeder mice at pet stores and that 'fancy' pet mice aren't inbred. So is it okay to get feeder mice and use them to breed or should I ask about their lineage and then decide on fancies or not?

Most mice are inbred in the long run especially those from large chain stores. I've had cases where I've seen a whole litter just die when born by inbred parents and then I've seen cases where nothing has happened. I believe I read that you already got your mice but if not, or if you want more. I suggest going to two different stores preferably of different types ((like petsmart for the male and Petco for the females)).

- I don't plan to keep these guys in expensive pet cages that allow you to easily see the animal. Would cheap-o tubs work well? What size? (Like maybe what someone could house a corn in?)
I've used a large storage tub for close to 20 females and have never had a problem with them. Simply cut slits in the side about 1/4 of an inch thick and several of them on each long side for ventilation an then drill a hole for the water bottle.

- I was browsing through some topics and someone (Wade, I think) said that it's best to get the mice at the hopper stage (or weanling? not sure) so they could grow to maturity together. I'm thinking that's a good idea, because I'd like to be able to house the females together at least while they're not with pups (right name for baby mice in general?).

I have NEVER had a problem introducing new females to my colony, clean the tub and then put them in. I would suggest having hides for them to relieve tension and let them get away from each other. These can be made out of anything really, boxes, coffee cans, TP rolls. I find this helps lower the risk of fighting in my opinion.
Keeping females together with pups is usually a good thing as long as they've been together a while and generally get along. One female with sit on the nest and the other will bring her food and then switch. I've found this helps keep the pups alive.

- While browsing some topics, I again came to one where someone had problems with cannibalism. Why the heck does that happen and how can I prevent it?
Cannibalism is mostly caused by 1.)Over crowding and 2.)Not a good enough diet. If they don't get enough food or what they need out of the food they will eat each other. I HIGHLY suggest buying a large bulk rodent food and it will last you FOREVER.

- I know most companies like Rodent Pro feed their mice and other feeders scientifically proven food, but I don't really feel like trying to get what they use. Would a bird seed or small animal food mix work?
All you need is a feed store that carries lab blocks and 30 bucks This will usually last you a LONG time. Or you can go to a feed store with bulk foods and get a good mix of various things, a good dog food would be a good choice to add.

- How long does gestation last? How long should I breed the individuals before retiring them? How long will a mother care for the babies/when should I separate them?
I'm pretty sure it is a gestation period of about a month. I would suggest breeding a female no more then 5-6 times, I've seen less pups and a high pup death rate the older the female. As far as separating I would just separate them as you need them. Pull both female out of the tub, rub your hand in bedding and then take some babies. If a mother mouse smells you or sees you messing with the nest she might leave the babies to die.

- I'm also wondering about table scraps and treats. As females will be pregnant all the time and taking care of babies, what kind of pet-treats and table scraps could be helpful?
A pregnant female would do well with a higher protein added to their diet. Meat, egg whites and a good dog food would do well with them along with scraps of fruits that you've eaten.

- I know dogs are only in heat once or twice a year and don't get pregnant between being in heat. Does a similar thing happen with mice or can I throw a male in with a female for half an hour to get her pregnant again after raising a litter?
Mice can get pregnant RIGHT after having their pups, I am VERY against this because giving the female at least a small break seems to produce larger, healthier litters then just breeding them right after. I would suggest 2 or 3 pairs of females so that when one pair has a litter the other with have a break((you can also do this with single females instead)). With three pairs you will always have a pair in every stage. Raising pups, pregnant and having a break.
 
ClickClickClickBOOM! said:
If you're only breeding a small amount why can't you treat them at least a little humanely?...I'm sorry but I really don't respect people who breed ANY animal to death, it's just as bad if not worse then letting a mouse suffer live....I'm sorry if this isn't what your saying but this is what it sounds like. They don't have to be treated like pets but should at least have an ok life, in my opinion healthy food = healthy snakes. I'll post my opinion and you can either listen or not care but at least I've said something...
Click to expand...

Oh, I didn't plan on giving them just food and water and then only remembering they're alive when I notice a bad smell of a rotting mouse. They're not going to be pets (as in I'm not gonna let them crawl on me every day for hours and get fat from treats), but they will be kept good care of.


Most mice are inbred in the long run especially those from large chain stores. I've had cases where I've seen a whole litter just die when born by inbred parents and then I've seen cases where nothing has happened. I believe I read that you already got your mice but if not, or if you want more. I suggest going to two different stores preferably of different types ((like petsmart for the male and Petco for the females)).
Click to expand...

I planned on getting the females at one place and the male another.

I've used a large storage tub for close to 20 females and have never had a problem with them. Simply cut slits in the side about 1/4 of an inch thick and several of them on each long side for ventilation an then drill a hole for the water bottle.
Click to expand...

Got a 10gal tank and a good screen lid instead. :D

I have NEVER had a problem introducing new females to my colony, clean the tub and then put them in. I would suggest having hides for them to relieve tension and let them get away from each other. These can be made out of anything really, boxes, coffee cans, TP rolls. I find this helps lower the risk of fighting in my opinion.
Keeping females together with pups is usually a good thing as long as they've been together a while and generally get along. One female with sit on the nest and the other will bring her food and then switch. I've found this helps keep the pups alive.
Click to expand...

Great. :D

Cannibalism is mostly caused by 1.)Over crowding and 2.)Not a good enough diet. If they don't get enough food or what they need out of the food they will eat each other. I HIGHLY suggest buying a large bulk rodent food and it will last you FOREVER.
Click to expand...

Got it. :)

All you need is a feed store that carries lab blocks and 30 bucks This will usually last you a LONG time. Or you can go to a feed store with bulk foods and get a good mix of various things, a good dog food would be a good choice to add.
Click to expand...

I found a pellet formula that's similar.

I'm pretty sure it is a gestation period of about a month. I would suggest breeding a female no more then 5-6 times, I've seen less pups and a high pup death rate the older the female. As far as separating I would just separate them as you need them. Pull both female out of the tub, rub your hand in bedding and then take some babies. If a mother mouse smells you or sees you messing with the nest she might leave the babies to die.
Click to expand...

Interesting. I'll remember that.

A pregnant female would do well with a higher protein added to their diet. Meat, egg whites and a good dog food would do well with them along with scraps of fruits that you've eaten.
Click to expand...

We got plenty of that! XD

Mice can get pregnant RIGHT after having their pups, I am VERY against this because giving the female at least a small break seems to produce larger, healthier litters then just breeding them right after. I would suggest 2 or 3 pairs of females so that when one pair has a litter the other with have a break((you can also do this with single females instead)). With three pairs you will always have a pair in every stage. Raising pups, pregnant and having a break.
Click to expand...

I'll probably experiment a bit with that. I've heard that keeping a male with them will keep them pregnant, and while obviously bad, I've also heard that trying to re-introduce the male may upset the female and get the male killed.
 
Haha, mice in the wild breed CONSTANTLY, they aren't being "bred to death" if you keep the male with them. As long as they have a good diet and aren't bothered too much by humans, female can breed well up until about 6 months of age (Which ends up to about 5-6 litters anyway). The female will refuse the male if she is not in season. Constantly pulling out the male and putting him back in is a big PITA and requires excellent timing and record-keeping and can be stressful on the females. The male WILL help raise the babies, all my males would sit on the babies and groom them.

Gestation is about 21 days, not a month.
 
I can tell you for a fact you will have no luck taking the male out and trying to put him back later. The females will kill him. But go ahead and try it anyway.
 
Click, I have been raising mice longer than you have graced this great planet. But you do it your way. :grin01:
 
wade said:
Click, I have been raising mice longer than you have graced this great planet. But you do it your way. :grin01:
Click to expand...

I will do it my way, and while I have no doubts in your experience or your capability in what you do I have just stated MY experience, I know it compares very little to yours but I do have a small chunk of it under my belt and will continue to do what I do the way it has worked best for me and my animals.
 
I kind of knew that is what you were going to say. That is why I didn't try to persuade you differently. Some people like to invent the wheel themselves.
 
I've done it both ways, kept them in groups and seperated them, and in my experience the pup production and lifespan of the females remains the same in both cases. The only difference is you are making things harder on yourself, especially if you don't put the male back in until the female has weaned the previous litter. You're just adding big gaps in your production for no real reason.

I've bred mice at home and I currently breed them at work in a lab, here we do seperate the males but only because we need to breed certain pairs to get certain genetic traits and keeping groups together was not a good way of doing it.

I have noticed that pup survival was increased when they are left to remain in groups together, and I believe that's because it helps reduce the overall workload on each female.
 
Candace, in your lab what are the strains of mice you use? Do you know much about the history of those strains? What do you know about inbreeding?
 
We have quite a few mice, mostly C57B but some others as well. I can't talk too much about my particular facility/animals, if you can understand. :) I do know that lab mice are heavily line-bred and inbred, that's why they are so valuable, mice from a certain strain are almost genetically identical! They are bred together for over 50 generations, and more in some of the older strains. Even though the mice are near-identical, there are occasional birth defects that are seemingly random, but not more common than in a colony of regular mice.

Now, I'll admit that they are created and inbred under strict supervision as opposed to breeder/petstore mice, but I really think people put too much worry into the negatives of line/inbreeding their feeder mice. You'd have to inbreed for several, even dozens of generations before anything bad would result.
 
Thank you. That is exactly what I wanted you to say!!! I raise Swiss Webster. I am familiar with C57B but do not have any. The Swiss Webster strain has been inbred for almost a hundred years. Inbreeding can be a good thing too.

It sounds like you know about mice. Some time we'll have to swap secrets.
 
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