This vid shocked me that I had to post it...

[PnyKlr]

They surely don't have human emotion...neither do dogs, but I have met someone who is sure their dog is "proud" of learning a new trick.

 

[Raiden The Almighty]

just a few points.. Mabey he took the Hides and the water out WHILE feeding so it wouldnt get sand in the water and get wrapped around the hides? or so the prey COULDNT hide..

and also.. that was a Guinny Pig (SP)

ANd while i do have pet rodents... it doesnt bug me none the least to feed them live.. Snakes are my favorite animal if it wont take F/T i will NOT hesitate to give it live.. or Prekilled.

not to sound rude.. but i do NOT think Rodents have the same emotion levels as us.. There life is it avoid being eatin.. eat.. reproduce.. they do that untill they get eaten.. its life.. in the wild it would happen the same way..

just my .02

Exactly. Its totally naturall to feed snakes live mice.

 

[Raiden The Almighty]

Sorry ryan. i didnt mean to misquote you.

 

[jazzgeek]

Who knows maybe there just proud. I know any time i have freinds over on feeding day i make it a point to show them my snakes killing and eating prey. I happen to find it facinating that an animal with no limbs found such an effective way to kill prey. Its just one of the many things i find so amazing abiut snakes. I personally derive great pride and joy from watching my snakes kill a mouse. But everyones different i guess.

Yeah, there's no greater pride in this hobby than providing your charges with sustenance so they may continue to live.

After the Xth time, how "fascinating" can it be? Do you log the different variations of constriction?




regards,
jazz

 

[RyanR]

hell.. i love snakes.. but im all for owning a king snake to feed Non feeding/kinked babies to it.. why? because its nature and the potential for non feeders/kinked babies to suffer is high.. why let them suffer..

also.. i know a fancy mouse breeder that owns a corn snake.. you know why? to feed babies with any mutations/runts(that are suffering) or any agressive mice to it..

im sure she loves her mice the most but she knows that breeding geneticly flawed/agressive mice would be really bad for bussiness so she does what she has to.

 

[Hypancistrus]

also.. i know a fancy mouse breeder that owns a corn snake.. you know why? to feed babies with any mutations/runts(that are suffering) or any agressive mice to it.

Yes, and I know people who keep and breed Bettas (Siamese Fighting Fish) and own an Oscar to eat deformed betta fry. I also feed my Bichir and my African Knife Fish live worms, and even live guppy fry. So what?

Like I said, the thing I find distasteful about this kind of a video, and especially given the questions that have been brought up here re: substrate, hides, prey type, etc, is that the person filmed it. To put it online for all to see.

Yes, it's amazing how snakes can consume animals larger than they. I am just not the kind of person that takes delight and pride in the death of another creature. It is what it is- the snake has to eat, so the rodent has to die. But I am not going to enjoy the fact, or relish watching the death of another animal.

My friend who hunts explained the same idea to meonce. Yes, he is a hunter. He kills deer for his family to eat, and also to manage the population around his particular area, to keep it in check. He enjoys getting a decent buck each year, but mostly shoots does. But everytime he shoots and kills, he feels a certain level of sadness and a heightened level of respect for the animal that is dying that he may live. And he doesn't film the deers last moments to post online for the amazement of his buddies.

To me, taking pride in the fact that your snake is killing and eating a rodent is just a little... weird. It's like taking pride in the fact that you can breathe or use your opposable thumb to pick up a pencil. Hypothetically, would we film that sort of thing and put it online? That's a miracle of Nature too- opposable thumbs.

But then again, I keep rodents as pets too. But I don't think that not having a gaggle of pet rodents would change my mind about people who post videos like this online. They're doing it for the shock factor, the awe factor, all to make up for their lacking manhood.

To each his own... but I don't think it's very considerate to jump down someone's throat if they found the video disturbing because the snake was constricting a live animal. Especially since we don't know the reason for their discomfort (as I don't think razor has posted again since- I may be wrong though!).

 

[Roy Munson]

but.. a snakes life is priority over any rodent if its the last means of feeding it

Why? I don't understand this. How do you prioritize the value of different life forms? If you use intelligence as the criterion, then mice trump snakes. :shrugs:

 

[Plissken]

Why? I don't understand this. How do you prioritize the value of different life forms? If you use intelligence as the criterion, then mice trump snakes. :shrugs:

Exactly what I was just thinking...I have no problem with feeding mice to snakes, but I don't feel that a mouse is not as important as a snake. Lions eat zebras, but I don't value a lion more than a zebra. It's just what happens and I have no real feelings about it either way.

I feel that people don't like it just because mice are cute and fluffy - if snakes ate cockroaches, I'd be willing to bet there wouldn't be half so much fuss.

 

[Dave123]

I feel that people don't like it just because mice are cute and fluffy - if snakes ate cockroaches, I'd be willing to bet there wouldn't be half so much fuss.

I agree. But also there would be way too many mice if it wasnt for snakes.

 

[stuart]

They surely don't have human emotion...neither do dogs, but I have met someone who is sure their dog is "proud" of learning a new trick.

That was in the paper lol, new scientists believe that dogs do feel secondary emotions - Jelousy, Guilt and Pride. :-offtopic

The thread wasnt meant to be a 'feeding live is bad' thread. More at the way the snake was treated. I myself dont have a problem with feeding live, or watching other snakes killing prey (I was watching them on YouTube to find the video in the first place ).

I myself dont feed live because :

1) In the 4 years Ive had my snake, not once has he constricted a mouse, even using the methods off sites. Such as heating the mouse up to body temp. or holding onto the mouse (with forceps) to provide resistance.

2) I wouldnt risk the mouse damaging my snake as he is my baby

 

[Roy Munson]

1) In the 4 years Ive had my snake, not once has he constricted a mouse, even using the methods off sites. Such as heating the mouse up to body temp. or holding onto the mouse (with forceps) to provide resistance.

If you dropped in a live mouse, I'll bet you a zillion quid that you'd end up seeing a constriction. It's a completely instinctive response, and Mitch has it, I'm sure.

:-offtopic I just looked at the pics of your snake on your site. Very nice, with HEAVY emoryi influence. Just wondering, why don't you call him a rootbeer het ghost?

 

[stuart]

:-offtopic I just looked at the pics of your snake on your site. Very nice, with HEAVY emoryi influence. Just wondering, why don't you call him a rootbeer het ghost?

Because I have no idea about genes and breeding right now, Im trying to learn that now. I just went by what the pet shop told me, that he was the result of a Ghost Corn + Great Plains Ratsnake. Thanks about the pics too, Ill have to do some updating on that site, some links dont work

If you dropped in a live mouse, I'll bet you a zillion quid that you'd end up seeing a constriction. It's a completely instinctive response, and Mitch has it, I'm sure.

Might try that someday , Would live to see that in real life.

 

[stingsmom]

There's certainly an interesting diversity of opinion here! I just had a couple of thoughts / questions.

1) I haven't done any research on boas, but I wonder if they require hides to the same extent that a corn does. They get awfully big, and I can't recall seeing a lot of hides where I've seen caged boas - zoos, pet shops. How big would a boa hide need to be?

2) I can appreciate that the online posting might be a bit immature (i.e., "wanna see my pet KILL somethin'?"), but not inherently despicable. I had my little boys at a museum once, and they made a little "event" out of feeding a live mouse to a snake. The naturalist explained what would happen, let the mouse go in the cage, and a whole crowd of visitors watched the snake locate, attack, constrict, and begin to consume the mouse. I've seen museum staff feed a tarantula also (although who'd worry too much about a dying cricket!?) We watch documentaries on "Animal Planet" so we can be amazed at the ways both predator & prey are fitted to survive with the challenges of their environment. (I'm not saying this guy's home video has any hint of the same quality or purpose - just that a person being fascinated with the process is not particularly unusual.) My family would really like to watch our snake feed (even a f/t mouse), just 'cause it's a bit incredible to think that they can swallow something bigger than their heads!

 

[Ssthisto]

I haven't done any research on boas, but I wonder if they require hides to the same extent that a corn does. They get awfully big, and I can't recall seeing a lot of hides where I've seen caged boas - zoos, pet shops. How big would a boa hide need to be?

Not as big as you'd think. I've seen an eight-and-a-half-foot common boa hide in a hidebox that wasn't much more than eighteen inches by eighteen inches by ten inches high. They really do pack themselves away small when they want to. And Charlie certainly used his hidebox - he didn't want to be out in the open any more than my corns do.

I know that some keepers have used upturned heavy plastic dog beds as hides for larger boas.

My family would really like to watch our snake feed (even a f/t mouse), just 'cause it's a bit incredible to think that they can swallow something bigger than their heads!

It is impressive to watch my guys eat - but I would never feed anything other than f/t personally. Yes, my snakes constrict F/T as though it was attacking them.

I have empathy for all animals regardless of their intended purpose and disposition. Causing stress and distress to animals is, to me, an evil to be avoided if possible and minimised if it can't be avoided. The experience of being constricted and consumed by a snake is visibly more stressful than I feel is right to expose a living creature to if there are alternative choices.

As long as there is an alternative of carbon dioxide anesthesia followed by CO2 euthanasia (lowest stress option) and the snake in question will take F/T or prekilled, IMHO, there is no reason to feed live. On the other hand, if the snake will starve to death without live prey, that would be prolonged stress inflicted on the snake - in which case, short-term stress on the part of the mouse has a 'lower' value in my moral hierarchy.

 

[nehpets1]

If you dropped in a live mouse, I'll bet you a zillion quid that you'd end up seeing a constriction. It's a completely instinctive response, and Mitch has it, I'm sure.
QUOTE]

I'll take that bet.

I just bought a motley sunglow from a science teacher in the area. She told me that all she ever fed it were f/t mice and that it was up to weanilings.

I'm kepping her quaratined from my other snakes right now, so she's at my dad's shop, and I take her two weanlings every week. Due to the hot weather, my mice have not been producing fast enough to provide me with a constant flow of babies, and I had to buy mice from pet food center last week.

I was in a hurry, so instead of euthanizing them, I decided to feed her live.
I stunned the first one, but by the time she decided to eat it, it was up and moving around.

She DID NOT know how to construct it! She tried and tried to eat it while it ran around the feeding bin, but she never figured it out. I ended up having to reach in and kille the mouse before she could have her meal.

Who'd have thought it? A snake that doesn't know how to constrict.

 

[Roy Munson]

If you dropped in a live mouse, I'll bet you a zillion quid that you'd end up seeing a constriction. It's a completely instinctive response, and Mitch has it, I'm sure.
QUOTE]

I'll take that bet.

I just bought a motley sunglow from a science teacher in the area. She told me that all she ever fed it were f/t mice and that it was up to weanilings.

I'm kepping her quaratined from my other snakes right now, so she's at my dad's shop, and I take her two weanlings every week. Due to the hot weather, my mice have not been producing fast enough to provide me with a constant flow of babies, and I had to buy mice from pet food center last week.

I was in a hurry, so instead of euthanizing them, I decided to feed her live.
I stunned the first one, but by the time she decided to eat it, it was up and moving around.

She DID NOT know how to construct it! She tried and tried to eat it while it ran around the feeding bin, but she never figured it out. I ended up having to reach in and kille the mouse before she could have her meal.

Who'd have thought it? A snake that doesn't know how to constrict.

Well, I'm going to hold off on writing that Zillion-Pound check yet. You intervened!

But seriously, I once had a very timid Miami that refused to engage mice in mortal combat, so I don't doubt you. But I've had a few problem-feeders over the years that were refusing f/t, so I'd try live. When these were refused, I'd toss the mouse in to a snake that had never seen a live mouse before. Without exception, these snakes knew what to do. Strangely, a number of my snakes that have never constricted f/t have begun doing so! My sister just told me yesterday that her yearling Okeetee just started doing it too. Who knows how these snakes' bb brains work? :shrugs:

 

[Eremita]

2) I can appreciate that the online posting might be a bit immature (i.e., "wanna see my pet KILL somethin'?"), but not inherently despicable. I had my little boys at a museum once, and they made a little "event" out of feeding a live mouse to a snake. The naturalist explained what would happen, let the mouse go in the cage, and a whole crowd of visitors watched the snake locate, attack, constrict, and begin to consume the mouse. I've seen museum staff feed a tarantula also (although who'd worry too much about a dying cricket!?) We watch documentaries on "Animal Planet" so we can be amazed at the ways both predator & prey are fitted to survive with the challenges of their environment. (I'm not saying this guy's home video has any hint of the same quality or purpose - just that a person being fascinated with the process is not particularly unusual.) My family would really like to watch our snake feed (even a f/t mouse), just 'cause it's a bit incredible to think that they can swallow something bigger than their heads!

Hey Lynn, glad to see you're keeping the posting rate up.

My wife would be very upset about a dying cricket. I am not to obtain any pets that require me to feed them crickets. She likes mice too, but understands that nature set things up with carnivores, and is willing to deal with me feeding the snake f/t mice, but certainly not live - I've never even thought to broach the subject.

On the other hand, from sacrifices - including human - to the games at the Roman Colosseum, people have traditionally had a certain fascination with death that has little or nothing to do with the wonders of nature. If you are into reading, Georges Bataille dealt with this pretty extensively in his Eroticism, although his perspective is rather controversial. I wouldn't wonder that the same thing that makes some people horrified at the live feeding prospect, viz., that they can imagine for themselves what the mouse must feel, is actually close to what draws others.

-Sean

 

[Asvard]

live prey

my 8 year old was giving my snakes pinkie a name on the way back from pet shop. I was worried she would be upset after seeing Soltice eat the pinkie Tiny was its name.

Her quote about watching it was that was awesome daddy.

I should have expected this she is a city kid but has had much farm experiencce thanks to my Fiance. ie. she met Oink the pig and knew oink was for food and even commented oink tastes good when she ate some of the bacon.

Asvard

 

[Jimmy Johnson]

my opinion..if anyone really gives a $&))

First of all, although there is nothing inherently wrong with feeding a live prey item to a snake you would think that a person would care about the safety of the snake.
In this instance the snake which is worth much more would obviously be the more "important" or valuable of the two animals.
I am also disgusted by the conditions of the snake's housing.
There is no reason for a set-up like that.
You guys can rationalize all you want but if any of you would even think of keeping your snakes in conditions like that, well, you are idiots.
Remember these are just MY OPINIONS stated here so the only ones who would feel I am actually calling them, personally, an idiot would be the only ones idiotic enough to keep their snakes in those conditions....LOL
I seriously doubt that would include any of you posting on this thread.
Man, I hope not anyway.
One thing that always amuses me in discussions like this is the frequency of which the statement of "we eat cows...." or something similar, arises...you all know what I mean.
BUT, I have never met anyone who would take joy in watching those cows, pigs, chickens or whatevers slaughtered.
We know it happens but we don't want to see it.
Is it natural for snakes to eat live prey? Obviously yes.
But is it also dangerous to feed live rodents to snakes? It can be!
So, although it can be an interesting thing to see, just how many times do you have to see it?
If they can and will eat frozen/thawed I am going for frozen/thawed.
And this has nothing to do with my affection for fuzzy little mice.
If you have ever lived on a farm and had a rodent problem you definitely won't love the little bast#$^s
This simply goes to convenience and the safety of my snakes.
To me my snakes are worth a hell of a lot more then a darn mouse...LOL

 

[MegF.]

I agree that the boa is being kept in less than substandard housing. The boas I've seen do not get housed on sand any more than my corns would. It's not a sand boa. I think feeding live is an unnecesary risk if yours will take f/t or f/k. I've seen horrible pictures of snakes who have had life threatening injuries suffered from rodents that have either eaten the snake when it wasn't hungry, or took out eyes or damaged nostrils when the snake was less than accurate in it's strike. Many required euthanasia or emergency surgical repair in order to function normally afterward. I have fed live mice once and that was to my female to try to get her eating after she laid her eggs. She has never fed on a live animal in her entire life, yet she took the mouse and constricted in less time than you can blink. I'm with Dean in that snakes instinctively know how to constrict. I have gone back to f/t as soon as she started eating again and she takes those just fine. I've also never found a snake that doesn't like some kind of cover to hide in. The burmese python that I rescued had no hides in her enclosure either but as soon as I put one in there she immediately went inside and stayed there. In the wild snakes eat live of course, but they also have a much larger space to manuever in. They also die a lot sooner in the wild and I'm sure that's in part to injuries they receive over their lifetimes. I've rarely caught a wild snake that didn't have scars on some portion of their bodies.