Ultra Mystery...

[ecreipeoj]

Rich you will get Poodles for sure!

Well, Kat you beat me to it, but I think that Rich is toying with us and setting us up for something.

I have just started to comprehending the co-dominant genes in boas when they are co-dominant to the normal gene. That is a lot easier than this because you get a Hypo or Normal and not an in between snake. I guess this is about the same thing except we are talking about two recessive genes being on the same allele and being co-dominant to each other, I think.

It is extremely odd for me to think of an Ultra X Amel breeding that produces double hets for Ultra and Amel, but since they are on the same allele it produces a visual hypomel or "Ultramel". (How am I doing at creating Corn Jargon?) It makes since to me.

If we want to create an Ultra Ghost (Which I think already exist as a Ruby Eyed Ghost, AKA Ultra Ghost), leave the amel gene completely out of the picture and breed an Ultra (uu) X Anery A and you would get Normal Corns that are het for Ultra and Anery A and we are back to basic Corn Genetics. The only confusing thing about the Ultra and Amel relationship is when they are in the same mix.

The only way that I see us using the Ultramels to make a cool morph is to perhaps produce an Ultramel Opal. I would suspect that these corns would have more remaining color than an Opal, because an Ultramel is close to an amel, but not quite there. An Ultra Lavender would most likely look similar to Hypo Lavenders or Lava Lavenders.

You never really know what a morph will look like until it exist, but an Ultramel Ghost, I would suspect would most likely look like a dark Snow or Super Light Ghost. The Ultra Ghost that I have seen are already very light with ruby eyes, but the added ½ amel gene would make them lighter. The weird thing about breeding Ultramels is that they wont breed true. It will be kind of like breeding two Double Hets together, and getting multiple Phenotypes instead of just one. I think Rich’s example of breeding an Ultramel het Anery A X Same would be like breeding triple hets together.

 

[elaphe4herps]

these sleepless nights are good for something... i guess.

here's a punnet square to go with the previous cross.

yah your right Joe. These ultramel crosses are going to get very confusing. But I think i have gotten the hang of it. And the ultramel opals!?! and ultramel lavs?!? Ohhh... :crazy01: I really think that they are going to be screamer. Just dripping with color, because think of what kind of color hypo A gives to a standard snow corn (assuming this ultra is remotley similar to these other hypos.)

 

[ecreipeoj]

BTW- if I am understanding something wrong, PLEASE let me know.

The only thing that you are doing wrong is using Serps "Greek" symbles that look like algebra to me which is going right over my head.

I understand the plain language part, which is all I think I need right now. We may have to take a college course soon to be able to predict corn genetics as more and more genes are discovered. If Mice People can do it, so can we.

I think Rich’s Tip of the Ice Burg is not necessarily the Ultramels, but this might be the beginning of much more complicated corn genetics.

 

[Serpwidgets]

There appears to be a phenotypic look for the ultra, but just as I have seen black on some of them and white on others, are we sure there aren't some ultras that don't fully have this "look"? Ones that could pass for the other hypo snakes?

This is the next thing to be figured out. It does seem possible that the homozygous versions could be similar enough to standard hypos to be mistaken in at least some cases.

We have faced the same problem with anery/charcoal for years now, and similar confusion exists with motley and striped corns. We'll have to cope with it in the same way. In some cases, you just have to say "I don't know" and do breeding trials to try and get an answer, or the closest thing to an answer. In at least a few cases, it might be impractical (or take years) to try to sort everything out.

The other interesting thing is that many of us have been whining about amel popping up and way too many snakes are het amel. At least this will make those hets a bit less annoying.

 

[Hurley]

Which cross is missing, Joe?

I found this: "I also bred the butter motley male to a few females het butter and a normal het butter." from Jason, but it doesn't give the results...

...and I'm not sure what it means.

Butter mot x Normals het butter and a normal het butter? Am I reading that wrong? Where's the ultra in that mix?

It's late and I've gone cross-eyed looking back trying to find the cross I missed. Help appreciated, I can add it to the spreadsheet and change the gif to make it show up. :shrugs:

 

[elaphe4herps]

lol - Joe - sorry about that . if you just pretend that the a's under the u and + signs don't exist and pretend the + sign is a capital letter, it's just like mendelian genetics. That plus the fact that 'au' isn't amel het ultra, or normal het amel het ultra, its just plain ultramel.

serps right, i know that I for one won't be complaining about some amel hets in the works. Unless it pops up right in the middle of a well-planned breeding project.

 

[ecreipeoj]

these sleepless nights are good for something... i guess.

here's a punnet square to go with the previous cross.

Hey, that helps! Perhaps in the morning after a pot of coffee, I will try to make since out of Serps symbols.

I want to hear Rich’s version of trying to explain to someone that if you want to produce an entire clutch of Ultramel Lavenders, the best way would be to breed an Ultra Lavender X Opal and not Ultramel Lavender X Same.

It is not too late over here, so I have to go feed two rooms of snakes before bed time.

 

[Serpwidgets]

Heh heh, actually Joe I use my own symbols in my own world... the notation is quite unpleasant to me, as it requires constant translation.

And yeah, ruby-eyed "Ultra Ghosts" are one of SWR's lines. We have one of them and it's as different from a regular ghost as the ice ghosts are. We're going to a show Sunday and Jim (SWR) will most likely be there... hopefully we can talk to him about this stuff.

 

[huneymonkey]

To answer Hurley's question

The Butter Mot is a sibling to all of the Ultras, so I assumed he is an Ultra Hypo Butter Motley. This has gotten a bit over my head, so I need to do some reading to keep up. I am understanding some of it and until I catch up, which will come after finishing this last week of classes for my bachelors, all I can do is observe and contribute my results.
Ultra butter mot bred to 2 or 3 Amels het butter produced Amels, and Butters
Ultra butter mot bred to Normal het butter produced Caramel, Amels, Butters
As best as I can remember, there were no hypos from any of these breedings. I will double check tomorrow to see if I bred him to anything else or if the results were any different.
This is getting interesting and pretty exciting! To reply to Kat from my earlier comment about a slippery slope, I meant it was getting a little hairy, but I have nothing better to do with my snakes but to go for it and see what happens!

 

[Hurley]

You can even see the hint of ruby in his pupil in this pic. I can't wait to cross this guy out...maybe get the snow version in the F1...wonder what those will look like. With any luck they'll be as colorful as Don's coral snows that he's posted.

 

[ecreipeoj]

Which cross is missing, Joe?

I found this: "I also bred the butter motley male to a few females het butter and a normal het butter." from Jason, but it doesn't give the results...

...and I'm not sure what it means.

Butter mot x Normals het butter and a normal het butter? Am I reading that wrong? Where's the ultra in that mix?

I couldn’t find the last entry on your Spread Sheet in the text. Your Spread Sheet isn’t missing something, I just couldn’t find where you got Jason’s (Ultra Het Hypo X Opal = Hypo) entry.

I agree that the Butter Motleys from the supposed Ultra X Ultra Breedings are not necessarily Homo or even het for Ultra, because they might be from an Ultramel X Ultramel breeding and all of the offspring would not be Homo for Ultra as is would seem.

 

[ecreipeoj]

You can even see the hint of ruby in his pupil in this pic. I can't wait to cross this guy out...maybe get the snow version in the F1...wonder what those will look like. With any luck they'll be as colorful as Don's coral snows that he's posted.

Don's Coral Snows are from the same line as this Ultra Ghost. Don's Coral Snow is actually Homo for Strawberry Hypo and Snow. I am not 100% positive, but I believe the Strawberry Hypos were once called Ultra Hypos by Jim and are one and the same thing. I am not sure if they are the same Ultra Hypo that we have been talking about, but they have been called that by Jim. Maybe Don's Coral Snow is an Ultramel Snow? Kat's odd amel sure is colorful.

If you get the chance to talk to Jim in person, see what you can find out about the Strawberry Hypo and Ultra connection.

 

[huneymonkey]

I agree that the Butter Motleys from the supposed Ultra X Ultra Breedings are not necessarily Homo or even het for Ultra, because they might be from an Ultramel X Ultramel breeding and all of the offspring would not be Homo for Ultra as is would seem.

I can't seem to figure out why we are throwing the Butter Motley out of the equation. Is it because he was possibly the result of an Ultramel X Ultramel? If this is the case, wouldn't his sister (the Ultra who was bred to the opal and produced all hypos) have produced some Amels?

 

[Hurley]

If these came from an ultramel x ultramel breeding, his sister may well be homozygous for ultra and thus wouldn't produce amels no matter what she's bred to.

 

[Hurley]

Well, for grins I went through and put in what I expect the genotypes are of the crosses in the spreadsheet (which I'll add Jason's other crosses to in a bit). Figured I'd share...

1

aCcHHmm x AacchhMM = AaCcHhMm, AaccHhMm, A

CcHhMm, A

ccHhMm,

aCcHhMm,

accHhMm (expect: caramels het amel or ultra, hypo, motley; ultramel caramel het hypo, motley; amels het hypo, caramel, motley, butters het hypo motley)

2

aCcKKmm x AACCkkMM = A

CcKkMm, AaCcKkMm (Normals het amel or ultra, sunkissed, motley)

3

aCcVVmm x AACCvvMM = AaCCVvMm, A

CcVvMm (Normals het amel or ultra, lava, motley)

4

aCcLLmm x AaCCllMM = AaCCLlMm, AaCcLlMm, A

CCLlMm, A

CcLlMm, aaCCLlMm, aaCcLlMm,

aCCLlMm,

aCcLlMm (Normals het lav mot, 50% het caramel; Amels het lav mot 50% het caramel, Ultramels het lav mot 50% het caramel)

5

x aa =

a (ultramels)

 

[Hurley]

6 Either

Hh x AAhh = A

hh’s (true hypos het ultra) and A

Hh,
Or

HH x Aahh =

aHh (ultramel het hypo) and A

Hh
Or a mix of both:

Hh x Aahh = A

hh,

ahh, A

Hh,

aHh

7

CCMm x aaCcMM =

aCCMM,

aCcMM,

aCCMm,

aCcMm (Ultramels poss het caramel, motley)

 

[Hurley]

8

Mm x

Mm =

MM,

Mm,

mm (Ultras and Ultra mots)

9

Cc x aaCc =

aCC,

aCc,

acc (Ultramel ambers [and ultramels])

 

[Hurley]

10

accMm x

accMm = aaccMM,

accMM,

ccMM, aaccMm,

accMm,

ccMm, aaccmm,

accmm,

ccmm (Ultra caramel motleys, butter motleys, [ultra caramels, butters])

11

cc x Aacc =

acc, A

cc(ultra caramels and caramels het ultra)

12

acc x aacc = aacc,

acc (ultra caramels and butters)

13

accHH x AAcchh = AaccHh, A

ccHh (Caramels het amel or ultra, hypo)

 

[Hurley]

14

accHhMM x AaccHhmm = AaccHHMm, AaccHhMm, AacchhMm, aaccHHMm, aaccHhMm, aacchhMm, A

ccHHMm, A

ccHhMm, A

cchhMm,

accHHMm,

accHhMm,

acchhMm (Caramels het amel or ultra, motley, 67%hypo; Butters het motley, het or homo hypo; Ambers het amel or ultra, motley; Ultramels caramels het or homo hypo, het motley)

15

aBB x Aabb =

aBb, aaBb, AaBb, A

Bb (Normals het blood and ultra or amel, Amels het blood, ultramels het blood)

16

accHHLL/

ccHHLL x AACChhll = A

CcHhLl (/AaCcHhLl) (Normals het ultra [or amel], caramel, hypo, lav)

17

acc/

cc x

aCC/

CC = Not hatched yet

 

[Menhir]

OK, so let's suppose that you breed an Ultra to an Amel and get 50 percent amels and 50 percent Ultras. Is that right?

That would mean, you have bred an homo Amel to an het.Amel&het.Ultra!!!

F2 Ultra x F2 Ultra = ?

F2 Ultra x F2 Amel = ?

[...]

Perhaps at this point, I should make an impudently post and say "use my calculator and Motley&Stripe instead of Amel&Ultra."

But it still bothers me, that I will have to rewrite the calculator, also with that co-dominant stuff. I optimiced the algorithm for dominant-recessive trait and this will end up in PHP Armageddon
But back to Topic, the really interesting comes up when we recognice that homo Ultra and het.Ultra&het.Amel (I still don't like Ultramel...) are not distingushable by their look. The whole calculating thing will end up in possible ratios. So I keep my fighers crossed they are :crazy02:

P.S.: While writing this, I saw an error in the calculator with the Motley-x-Stripe thing. Pairing Motley-x-Stripe (or Ultramel) leads to 3/4 Motley 66% poss.het.Stripe and 1/4 Stripe - so he uses it as if Motley and Motley-x-Stripe are not distingushable (which I thought was true). In the rest, he uses Motley and Motley-x-Stripe as if they were distingushable. I should correct that into one way for Motley&Stripe and (hopefully) in the other way for Ultra&Amel.