What is your ideal incubation media?

[MegF.]

They do need air, but I know that Rich doesn't put holes anymore either. Eggs use so little air that the amount in the container appears to be sufficient for the whole incubation period. If you really wanted to, you could periodically slightly open the lid to allow fresh air in.

 

[Cflaguy]

Never had a problem with this...

I would worry about paper towels getting up against my eggs and clinging to the shells, thereby drowning them. Same inherent problems as you can have with vermiculite. I've found if there is some kind of mistake to make, I'll make it. Perlite saves me from myself!

I mist the towels and use a totally sealed container. At least once a (maybe more depending on humidity and temp) week it will need to opened and the towels re-misted, thus getting air.
But I say whatever works for ya! :bird:

 

[mbdorfer]

I mist the towels and use a totally sealed container. At least once a (maybe more depending on humidity and temp) week it will need to opened and the towels re-misted, thus getting air.
But I say whatever works for ya! :bird:

The secret to the paper towel thing, if you do it right, is that bacteria will attack the weakest biological medium, so the mold spores and others will stay off the eggs and attach themselves to the paper product. I believe that the eggs themselves are a weaker medium than things like moss, vermiculite, etc...
If you keep the bacteria off the eggs, they should be healthier, producing more yolk, hence, producing healthier hatchlings.
That is, if I understood Gino's hatching method completely!
Can't argue with success :shrugs:

 

[KJUN]

The secret to the paper towel thing, if you do it right, is that bacteria will attack the weakest biological medium, so the mold spores and others will stay off the eggs and attach themselves to the paper product. I believe that the eggs themselves are a weaker medium than things like moss, vermiculite, etc...
If you keep the bacteria off the eggs, they should be healthier, producing more yolk, hence, producing healthier hatchlings.
That is, if I understood Gino's hatching method completely!
Can't argue with success :shrugs:

Well, bacteria and mold are two different things. Mold spores either grow or don't where they land. Media either encourage or discourage the growth of mold. Mold doesn't pass up some food to get to easier food like an animal/bacteria would. I can't speak for others, but I've pretty much had NO real problem with bacteria attacking fertile eggs. Mold - yes, but not bacteria. ....and mold doesn't seem to spread on perlite/vermic since there isn't much food for mold on volcanic rock.

KJ

 

[mbdorfer]

Yeah it's been a long time since science class. I was actually not aware that mold was not a bacteria! Thanks for clearing that up. I did google it to make sure though :grin01:

 

[MegF.]

Kathy Love has held to the idea that healthy eggs won't mold, even in the presence of a dead or molding egg. The egg shell is a natural barrier to bacteria and should be to mold as well. If it goes moldy (the blue mold-not the white which is from excessive moisture) it was probably bad to begin with.

 

[KJUN]

Kathy Love has held to the idea that healthy eggs won't mold, even in the presence of a dead or molding egg. The egg shell is a natural barrier to bacteria and should be to mold as well. If it goes moldy (the blue mold-not the white which is from excessive moisture) it was probably bad to begin with.

I understand her point, but there are always exceptions - lots of them in this case. The ones that come to mind firstare the ones where eggs mold - and still hatch. Obviously, those are/were healthy eggs. When I see that, I make sure to coat that part of the egg with an anti-fungal product. Usually, the babies turn out smaller than average, and the part of the egg attacked by the mold is solid. ...which explains why the baby develops smaller.

The oils in our skin can (and does) remove some of the natural anti-fungal properties of the egg. Other things can do that, too. These factors are why it is possible/likely for some good eggs to still get attacked by mold. Improper pH of the incubating media can make it more likely for good eggs to get attacked by mold, too - by reducing the eggs ability to "defend itself." Proper pH is always important - which is one of the reasons why I don't like using straight Vermic!

 

[Cflaguy]

Never knew this...

The secret to the paper towel thing, if you do it right, is that bacteria will attack the weakest biological medium, so the mold spores and others will stay off the eggs and attach themselves to the paper product. I believe that the eggs themselves are a weaker medium than things like moss, vermiculite, etc...
If you keep the bacteria off the eggs, they should be healthier, producing more yolk, hence, producing healthier hatchlings.
That is, if I understood Gino's hatching method completely!
Can't argue with success :shrugs:

I've just always used paper towels. Since 82.' If you look at my pics from last year you'll see a clutch of totally white eggs. And healthy snakes? Number 7 is as already bigger than the hatchlings I bought the previous year. I was a breeding stud and didn't know it (make up your own jokes there). :grin01:

 

[KJUN]

If you keep the bacteria off the eggs, they should be healthier, producing more yolk, hence, producing healthier hatchlings.

I didn't catch this before. Eggs don't produce yolk like that.

 

[diamondlil]

I've just always used paper towels. Since 82.' If you look at my pics from last year you'll see a clutch of totally white eggs. And healthy snakes? Number 7 is as already bigger than the hatchlings I bought the previous year. I was a breeding stud and didn't know it (make up your own jokes there). :grin01:

Yep, am making up my own jokes here :grin01:

 

[MegF.]

I understand her point, but there are always exceptions - lots of them in this case. The ones that come to mind firstare the ones where eggs mold - and still hatch. Obviously, those are/were healthy eggs. When I see that, I make sure to coat that part of the egg with an anti-fungal product. Usually, the babies turn out smaller than average, and the part of the egg attacked by the mold is solid. ...which explains why the baby develops smaller.

The oils in our skin can (and does) remove some of the natural anti-fungal properties of the egg. Other things can do that, too. These factors are why it is possible/likely for some good eggs to still get attacked by mold. Improper pH of the incubating media can make it more likely for good eggs to get attacked by mold, too - by reducing the eggs ability to "defend itself." Proper pH is always important - which is one of the reasons why I don't like using straight Vermic!

How can a mother snake in the wild determine pH of the soil she decides to lay in? I figure the pH varies constantly, yet eggs hatch obviously as we have a decent population of cornsnakes around here. I don't think they are as sensitive to pH as they are to temps and humidity. As far as moldy eggs hatching, the point is, the mold did not appreciatively affect the egg itself. Most likely even if you didn't treat the egg it would have hatched. Hard to say. I haven't had any mold yet, and would most likely treat them as you do if I did. As for touching the eggs, I don't do it other than to transfer the eggs from the laying box to the egg boxes. They are then covered in the perlite and a layer of damp moss and not touched again.

 

[KJUN]

How can a mother snake in the wild determine pH of the soil she decides to lay in?

I never said they could, but it is obvious that they have SOME ability to determine pH. You and I can - why couldn't a snake? Obviously, humans can't do it that well. Maybe snakes can't either, but I suspect they can do it better than us thanks to their extra sense organ.

I figure the pH varies constantly,

From clutch to clutch in the wild? Maybe. During incubation of a clutch? Hmmmm, I count it very seriously. Unless they are getting hit with a LOT of water to move ions in and out, pH won't change much in this situation. Of course, that much water would cause other problems resulting in low hatch success.

I don't think they are as sensitive to pH as they are to temps and humidity.

Ahhhh, you are problem right, but people monitor temps and humidity while typically ignoring pH. Additionally, pH is very difficult to change in an incubation media. I can add more water if it is too dry. I can warm it up if it is too cold. If the pH is wrong, I'm screwed. I bet it is the same for almost everyone. THIS is why I recommend a mixture that "fixes" the pH before it becomesa problem - that you might not even know about. I admit the problem is a small one, but the risk is large enough so that the few extra cents and second to do it right (my opinion) is worth it.

Also, mold IS very sensitive to pH. More so, I suspect, than eggs. This should be obvious. The eggs ability to fight off mold is obviously a "dose response" curve with pH. Duh again. I'm not necessarily referring to an eggs ability to survive in a slighlty off kilter pH incubation media - I'm referring to molds ability to grow and attack an egg at specific pH levels.

As far as moldy eggs hatching, the point is, the mold did not appreciatively affect the egg itself.

What? You must have misread where I said the babies came out tiny ansd a large portion of the egg was solid (instead of being food for the developing embryo). If you don't call that "appreciatively affecting the egg" then I have no clue what you would call that except death of the embryo....lol. I didn't measure any of them, but I'd say many were ~60% of the mass of a normal clutchmate. Some were so small, but fully formed and otherwise healthy looking, that feeding pinks were out of the question. I know I tried heads of "reds," but I don't remember now if any of them ate or not. I know I would have just frozen the ones that didn't eat since they were so small.

Most likely even if you didn't treat the egg it would have hatched. Hard to say.

No it isn't. The mold was spreading until I treated them. The ones not treated didn't hatch. The area where the mold did spread before treatment was the solid area - smaller area = larger babies and vice versa. Conclusion: when moldattacks, it CAN kill good eggs even when temp and humidity are correct.

As for touching the eggs, I don't do it other than to transfer the eggs from the laying box to the egg boxes. They are then covered in the perlite and a layer of damp moss and not touched again.

I actually don't get bothered by touching my eggs. Not really. I take them out, handle them as necessary (including separating them when necessary), and putting them in my incubation boxes. "Good eggs hatch" so they take care of themselves once I do that....as long as I provide them with the proper medium and moisture.....lol.

That's really the key: good eggs hatch. That's why so many different media work! The rare problems are why some of us recommend one media type over another. Sure, if you only produce a dozen clutches or so a season, you chance of seeing a "rare" problem is small. When you produce up to 2,000 eggs a season (breaking 2,000 before I cut back a few years ago was my personal record), you WILL start seeing the rare problems. It hurts when it is an "important" clutch - and you seek resolutions to reduce even rare events.

PLUS, cornsnake eggs are easy. Some of the other things we've done aren't. When you have a 6' long colubrid that only lays 4-5 eggs every other year, you treasure each one. PLUS, in our experience, larger colubrid eggs get more sensitive to changes than smaller colubrid eggs - probably due to the cube root law of volume to surface area!

The problem is that people put too much reliance on Kathy's book - as they will with Don's larger book in a couple of years - and consider it an "end all, be all" when it can't be. I bet there are a million things Kathy knows and wanted to put in the book but couldn't. (Heck, she's breed snakes for over twice the time I have breed snakes with more than I've had even at my peak and I see a bunch of things that were left out due to space/time that are beyond her control!) The book(s) have a finite (and small) number of allowable pages and the authors have a very finite amount of writing time. HOWEVER, the rare exceptions that they've come across or heard about are much larger than can realisitically be put in a book of that size for that selling price. In science, the rare events are usually more important than the common events. In the hobbyist side, the rare events are frequently OK to be ignored.

 

[KJUN]

I forgot to add.....

They are then covered in the perlite and a layer of damp moss and not touched again.

That is almost exactlky what I used to do, except that I started with #3 grade vermic. The only reason I stopped is because of the darn "fruit fly"-like flying insects. you can't keep them out of a large collection in southern LA no matter how hard you try! The damp moss is perfect for them and causes an EXPLOSION in their population down there. PLUS, I've had the larvae (maggots) kill and eat good eggs within a couple of days. Sad. I had to leave the moss out to help keep those guy's number to a minimum. I still use Sphagnum moss as a laying medium, though. I like it. My girls seem to like it, too.

Granted, I could now go back to using moss in an airtight container that I open for weekly checks, etc., but my current method works about as well as anything possibly could work, I think. My experimenting days on that front are thankfully over. Back in the late '90's I did that until I was sick in the face. Many large clutches were divided up into 3-4 groups and incubated in different media, etc., to see which one(s) worked the best that I liked the most. Man, that was a pain in the butt.....lol.

 

[MegF.]

Well, I've got em' on perlite with moss now and I'm here in the south too. Haven't had a problem with flies yet. I only have 2 tiny holes in the tubs for air though, so maybe that has something to do with it. Never had flies ever before. As far as pH....what is the ideal pH? I haven't the faintest idea and I've never seen a study that has shown exactly what the pH is for colubrid egg success. All I know is mine hatch. As far as mold's significant affect on the egg, sure, small size is an affect, but I consider complete loss to be significant. I had 2 babies that were much smaller than my other hatchlings and no mold was present. Could it just be coincidence that the ones with the mold were smaller? Do you ever have smaller animals out of seemingly normal eggs? If they would have succumbed to the mold, were they really fit to hatch? I use Kathy's book as a guide, not as an end all. If I did, I'd use vermiculite most likely. I take all thoughts and suggestions and if they seem to work well for the person and they are having a high level of success, then I try it. Perlite was that for me. Stephen suggested I use it as he's had a good success rate. I have also had a good success rate as well. As long as it continues to work for me, I will use it. The other mediums have too many ways of killing my eggs for my comfort. If I can make some kind of error, I will....I try to use the safest thing for less chance of disaster thru mistakes. Kind of the egg medium for dummies!

 

[KJUN]

Well, I've got em' on perlite with moss now and I'm here in the south too. Haven't had a problem with flies yet.

No offense, but the only people that consider SC to be "in the south" are people from SC or further north....lol. Anything north of old 90 is too far north for me.

As far as mold's significant affect on the egg, sure, small size is an affect, but I consider complete loss to be significant. I had 2 babies that were much smaller than my other hatchlings and no mold was present. Could it just be coincidence that the ones with the mold were smaller?

LOL. Want me to run a Chi-squared analysis and tell you the probablity that those cases happened by chance alone? Believe what you want, but I'm not talking about ONE hatchling, ONE clutch, ONE medium, ONE year, or even within a single decade..... LOL. Believe me - there is a correlation (even if you won't accept causation) beyond what you'd expect to see by chance alone.

I don't see alive versus dead as the only comparison for a significant affect. If someone is in an accident and loses 50% of their movement in one arm, that isa significant affect even if they keep the arm. If a snake hatches out almosy half the size of its clutchmates due to SOME cause, I consider that a significant effect. If someone incubated their cornsnakes at 90F to get them to hatch out 3 weeks sooner, but all of the babies were smaller ands a little weaker, would that be a "significant" enough of a difference to make you buy from someone else? I sure as heck would. I'd call that a significant effect. THAT difference is no less than what we are talking about in those (rare) mold attacked eggs. Of course, maybe we defining "rare" differently, too. I'm a little lax with the word. Large breeders MIGHT see it one a year, but small breeders might see it once in their life. I'd consider that incident rare. Still, once a year is something you can work with and study, right? Perhaps someone with 5,000 eggs wouldn't even notice a moldy egg in time to realize it WAS fertile before it was killed. With my wife's help, even 2,000 eggs weren't much of a problem for us back THEN. I noticed things. (Of course, since I work in ecological herpetology and my wife is a DVM/PhD, we might also be a little more observant on some things than others that do this JUST as a hobby or a business selling to hobbyists. :shrugs: LOL

If they would have succumbed to the mold, were they really fit to hatch?

"If they are good to hatch, they won't get attacked by mold. If they get attacked by mold, they weren't good to hatch." I've heard people say that before, but circular logic never proves anything. I just don't buy it. I'll agree that the ones I THINK I got to too late to save (and didn't hatch) might have been "unfit" to hatch. I can't prove they would have hatched if I had got to them sooner. I think many of them would, but that doesn't prove anything. I'll admit that it is possible that the mold spread so fast because they weren't gonna make it no matter what. However, I know the ones that started with equivalent amounts of the mold before I started using antifungal powders didn't make it - while the ones after I started using it DID make it. (...smaller babies or not....)

 

[MegF.]

I'll agree with your arguments. Can't fight pure logic. I still want to know what studies have been done on pH factors. What is the "perfect pH" for colubrid eggs and how have so many of us managed to hatch any eggs without once checking pH? I would figure that mold would require a less acidic base to grow (could be wrong...never tested bread surfaces for pH before throwing that moldy piece away) but without pH testing strips...and knowing what makes the perfect pH...how are you going to fix it...and then...with what? Are you going to throw a little vinegar in there if it's not acidic enough or what?

 

[snakedancer]

I just realized that the last time I looked at this thread I accidentally clicked on soil in the poll and I didn't even mean to vote. I'm currently using a sphagnum and peat moss mix but I can't actually say what my prefered incubation media is because this is my first year of breeding.

 

[rolandslf]

I've used vermiculite for 4 seasons now without a problem.

Ciao

 

[El Jefe]

That time of year again so I thought I'd revive a few of the helpful threads and see if other people want to vote.

 

[desertanimal]

I've always used no medium ("substrateless incubation") and I've liked it very much. I have added moist paper towels if the eggs start to dehydrate.