Why not to use a heat rock......

[jjspirko]

OK I better give these guys props

Well may be I should have checked before I went off like that apparently one maker does limit temp of a hot rock. Check these out

http://www.futurepets.com/Heat_Emitters.htm

To me 106 is still higher then any need to be but you won't have any lost toes at that temp. Honestly a limit of like 96-98 would make these a good product at least with lizards if not snakes too.

Oh and apparently my comment on any added cost being tiny was dead on look at the prices of those products. No higher then any "hot rock". I won't use these as I don't keep anything but snakes but I am going to send this company a letter thanking them for addressing this issue with some common sense,
:cheers:

 

[Drizzt80]

I do not know, but I am one against them.

That would be important information to know . . . I would like to think that a 6 foot iquana laying on a 8x8 inch UTH could potentially cause burns as well since the iguana would not feel heat through their entire body. From my understanding that is the real reason herps get burned on hot rocks, uneven heat of their bodies, not uneven heating of the rocks.

I mean would it be that hard to make a hot rock that only heated up to about 90 degrees? No simple electronics limit the tempature.

That's my point . . . the same could be said of UTH's!

Well may be I should have checked before I went off like that apparently one maker does limit temp of a hot rock. Check these out

http://www.futurepets.com/Heat_Emitters.htm

Are you pointing to the hot rocks on this page, or the ceramic heat emitters? The hot rocks supposedly turn off at 106 degrees and the ceramic heat emitters work similarly to a heat bulb . . . which by the way burned down my sister-in-law's house . . . so let's talk heat lamps vs. heat rocks as well . . .

D80

Disclaimer: I don't use hot rocks, but I think the warnings about them are overhyped compared to any/all heat sources . . .

 

[jjspirko]

Here is a cut and paste of the email I just sent to the company that makes the hot rock product that cuts off before reaching a temp that burns and injures reptiles,

-----------------

I would like to thank you on behalf of many armature and professional herpetologists and pet owners for your "hot rock product" which provides a cut off temperature to prevent burns to reptiles. I have been keeping and advising others on the care of reptiles for more then 20 years. In those years I have witnessed far to many animals burned to varying degrees by typical "hot rock" type products.

Until this time my advice has always been to anyone in regard to these products simply "never use them". During these years I have been confused as to why manufactures of these products would make a product that so poorly served it's market as to injure, maim and kill the valued pets of their target demographic.

Again thank you for addressing this issue. I do have a few suggestions for you in this area though,

1. You have a unique product that fixes a problem many know about and many do not know about. Why are you not making this feature more obvious to your potential customers and sales channels. I have not examined your packaging yet but on your web site I have to dig very deep into the product literature to see that you offer this feature. I would have this prominently on any and all literature, sales copy, training materials for vendors and packaging. Let me be clear large font in an eye catching color.

2. On a vendors site I noticed your temperature is limited to 106 degrees but on your own site you state "when a certain surface temperature is reached". It would make sense for you to tell your market the real cut off temperature so they can make an informed decision as to weather your product is right for their needs and this cut off temperature is the number one factor in making that decision in relation to the animal they plan to use it for.

3. If your vendor is accurate (yet another problem of you not publishing this information) and the temp is indeed 106F I find that temperature to be still higher then is necessary for just about any reptile's needs. Most animals in the wild do as your web copy states and "warm on such surfaces after dark" sucking up the radiant heat. In all but the most punishing environments such temperatures will be in the 90s at best. A limit of 96-98 degrees would provide more then enough warmth for any reptile commonly kept in the trade today, provide greater protection from burns and open your product to use by the owners of snakes which outnumber owners of lizard species by about 10 to 1.

Despite my suggestions (the third I guess could be called a criticism) you product is very good as is and will save the lives of many animals and countless more animals will be spared severe injury. My suggestion to make your feature more prominent would serve two goals, first making your product sell better and second education of the market which would cause your competitors to adjust which would do a lot to change the entire landscape of the market. Of cause you could then market that too and I can tell you it would be a very well received message by the educated segment of the market.

Again thank you for adding this feature to your product,

Jack Spirko

---------------

Hope they take the time to read it,
:cheers:

 

[Drizzt80]

Here is a cut and paste of the email I just sent to the company that makes the hot rock product that cuts off before reaching a temp that burns and injures reptiles,
---------------------------
Hope they take the time to read it,
:cheers:

Now that's what I call pro-active! Instead of whining about the problem, you're doing something!

D80

 

[jjspirko]

Are you pointing to the hot rocks on this page, or the ceramic heat emitters? The hot rocks supposedly turn off at 106 degrees and the ceramic heat emitters work similarly to a heat bulb . . . which by the way burned down my sister-in-law's house . . . so let's talk heat lamps vs. heat rocks as well . . .

D80

Disclaimer: I don't use hot rocks, but I think the warnings about them are overhyped compared to any/all heat sources . . .

The rocks, given that the entire thread is about rocks and my comments were about them I thought it would be pretty clear, :shrugs:

 

[Drizzt80]

The rocks, given that the entire thread is about rocks and my comments were about them I thought it would be pretty clear, :shrugs:

It wasn't perfectly clear as the rock themselves aren't anything new. Hagen's Exo-Terra rocks have been around quite a while with that same packaging. Admittedly I didn't read through the description of the rocks you linked to past the 'turns off at 106 degrees comment'. The LED on/off light and temp controller are new, and unfortunately I cannot comment on just how new those added features are. :shrugs:

D80

 

[jjspirko]

That's my point . . . the same could be said of UTH's!

D80

I guess in theory but what about in practice? As stated in my email to the manufacturer I have seen honestly hundreds of injuries in my twenty herping years by hot rocks and similar products.

Total number I have actually seen by UTH = O.

Mainly because seldom will any reptile dig through the substrait and place their body directly on the bottom of the viv in contact with the heater. Or even if they do the fact that the substrait contains the heat above them would make them quickly choose to move to a cooler location.

When they are on a rock the belly is warm but the back is cold, when they have substrait above and a tank heater below they entire core tempature warms swiftly. Sort of like if you lay on a warm sidewalk you might stay a long time if it was not too hot but if you then put a blanket on top of you the tempature would grow uncomfortable or beyound your needs swiftly and your desire to thermo regulate would cause you to move.

So in fact UTH when used properly (and they amost always are due to their very nature) have failsafes built in and hot rocks don't.

We can't blame the consumer either, if they go to a pet store and buy a reptile and the same store has the rocks right next to the viv they buy they are justified to believe the product is good for their pet. It is up to the store to advise them and with petcos and petsmarts etc such advice often leaves MUCH to be desired,

 

[jjspirko]

It wasn't perfectly clear as the rock themselves aren't anything new. Hagen's Exo-Terra rocks have been around quite a while with that same packaging.

D80

Understood, I guess after becomming DISGUSTED by hot rocks over the years I stopped bothering to look at any of them. Kind of why I sugested to the maker to make this feature more prominant to their market. Until I just found these I always just grunted in disgust every time I saw a hot rock. WIth out this thread it would have taken bold font most likely in red letters to catch my attention.

This also makes me confused :shrugs: when one manufacturer has a feature that is beats its competitors it is common sense to make a big deal about it in sales copy, etc.

Just seems to be a lack of business sense in the pet trade at times.

 

[Drizzt80]

I guess in theory but what about in practice? As stated in my email to the manufacturer I have seen honestly hundreds of injuries in my twenty herping years by hot rocks and similar products.

Total number I have actually seen by UTH = O.

For the most part I agree. But wonder if more heat controlling equipment is used by people with UTH's or if there is no reporting of the problems. :shrugs:

Mainly because seldom will any reptile dig through the substrait and place their body directly on the bottom of the viv in contact with the heater.

I disagree here as all my corns do this when possible.

When they are on a rock the belly is warm but the back is cold, when they have substrait above and a tank heater below they entire core tempature warms swiftly. Sort of like if you lay on a warm sidewalk you might stay a long time if it was not too hot but if you then put a blanket on top of you the tempature would grow uncomfortable or beyound your needs swiftly and your desire to thermo regulate would cause you to move.

This is quite possibly the best, and only, explanation I have heard explaining the differences between the two, and the possible causes of burns! It actually makes a small amount of sense!

So in fact UTH when used properly (and they amost always are due to their very nature) have failsafes built in and hot rocks don't.

I'm not sure that there are failsafes built into the UTH's, but I could be wrong here . . .

Great points you have made!
D80

 

[Serpwidgets]

If it got that warm in 3 hours i could only imagine what a few days or weeks could do!

Yes, given a 10 degree change over ten minutes, we can extrapolate this out to see what the temps will become:

Start 83 F
10 min 93 F
20 min 103 F
30 min 113 F
1 hour 143 F
2 hours 203 F (Water almost boils)
4 hours 443 F
8 hours 563 F
1 day 1,523 F (Iron melts)
2 days 2,963 F
1 week 10,163 F (Temperature in the sun's photosphere)
1 month 43,283 F (Nearly the temp of the sun's chromosphere)
6 months 259,283 F
1 year 525,683 F
2 years 1,051,283 F

:sidestep:

Edit: Ok ok, I was thinking the same thing, Kat, so here are some notes on the temperatures, LOL.

 

[Kat]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Serpwidgets again.

Aww darn. I thought that post was great. The only thing it needed was the point at which the heat rock got hotter than the sun.

-Kat

 

[jjspirko]

Aww darn. I thought that post was great. The only thing it needed was the point at which the heat rock got hotter than the sun.

-Kat

I am thinking around 1 million degrees is about where it would set our atmosphere aflame and distroy all life on the planet :devil01: