My Research Copperheads

[jlindp]

Beautiful snakes! The reptile sanctuary where I volunteer has about 6-7 of these guys that are listed for relocation after being found near people or were tough luck cases. I always enjoy going in to look at them. They have some of the most intimidating stares, though.

 

[Hail_Britannia]

I love copperheads, they are SO pretty. I just wish they weren't venomous so I could own one!

 

[tyflier]

I'm not sure which subspecies they are, they are all wild caught, sounds bad but the alternative was decapitation. I do like them, and I amazed Daenerys this week when I identified that two of the snakes had been switched, by memorizing their individual patterns and colorations, as well as personalities ^_^

Given your location, chances are good that these are probably A.c. contortrix, not A.c. mokasen. I'm not poisitive, and I can't seem to find an accurate range map at the moment, but I believe that Southern Copperheads are the subspecies most commonly occuring in your range. But I could be wrong...

Gorgeous critters. My second favorite species of snake. I love copperheads, and someday I plan on owning one...or two...

 

[medusacoils]

Great looking snakes!! The research your doing, is it for the further development of anti venom or are you just looking further into the toxicity of the venom?

Wayne

 

[Snakewhisperer]

Great looking snakes!! The research your doing, is it for the further development of anti venom or are you just looking further into the toxicity of the venom?

Wayne

It is more for safer research methods for pit vipers, my research is an addition to the previous project where they explored alternatives to removing the venom glands in order to stop the flow of venom.

 

[wstphal]

Lovely snakes! They are so pretty. I like the butt muncher picture.

 

[tyflier]

It is more for safer research methods for pit vipers, my research is an addition to the previous project where they explored alternatives to removing the venom glands in order to stop the flow of venom.

Why would you want to stop the flow or production of venom in a pit viper?

 

[El Jefe]

I like them....my first "hot" was a copperhead. Always wanted to work with copperheads in a research setting but all I've ever done so far is catch, mark, and release.

Keep us updated on the research. I'd be interested in learning more. Also, what "other" methods did the previous research on venom control utilize?

 

[medusacoils]

It is more for safer research methods for pit vipers, my research is an addition to the previous project where they explored alternatives to removing the venom glands in order to stop the flow of venom.

Wouldn't that affect the digestive system of the animal or is that just in the case of some animals? Forgive my ignorance regarding venom. This isn't an area that I'm edjumacated in. :bang:

Wayne

 

[Snakewhisperer]

Why would you want to stop the flow or production of venom in a pit viper?

You need to stop the flow of venom, temporarily is what we do, in order to study how the venom affects the digestion. When we fed corn snakes mice injected with copperhead venom, it made no difference at higher temperatures, but helped at lower temperatures. We want to do it with the copperheads in order to see if their digestive system is reliant on the venom, or if the venom is solely to kill their prey. What we do is plug the fangs with dental cement, then when they are shed the new fang is normal. I am trying to figure out how often they are shed in order to aid in this process.

 

[tyflier]

Wouldn't that affect the digestive system of the animal or is that just in the case of some animals? Forgive my ignorance regarding venom. This isn't an area that I'm edjumacated in. :bang:

Wayne

Yes, it can. Pit vipers have a highly haemotoxic venom that destroys tissue and blood on a cellular level. It's similar to the way a spider's meal is digested before being eaten, though not to quite the extent with copperheads. I don't know of any major, long-term studies on the life expectancy differences and health ratings between hot and venomoid pit vipers, but I would be very, very interested in reading of such a study...

Snakewhisperer wrote:

You need to stop the flow of venom, temporarily is what we do, in order to study how the venom affects the digestion. When we fed corn snakes mice injected with copperhead venom, it made no difference at higher temperatures, but helped at lower temperatures. We want to do it with the copperheads in order to see if their digestive system is reliant on the venom, or if the venom is solely to kill their prey. What we do is plug the fangs with dental cement, then when they are shed the new fang is normal. I am trying to figure out how often they are shed in order to aid in this process.

Sounds like a reasonable way to do it.

This also sounds like the type of study I mentioned above. Please, keep us updated. I would also be very interested in any links or data you might be able to provide. This is an avenue of research that has fascinated me for some time, and I am incredibly curious of the findings...

 

[El Jefe]

Wouldn't that affect the digestive system of the animal or is that just in the case of some animals? Forgive my ignorance regarding venom. This isn't an area that I'm edjumacated in. :bang:

Wayne

That, my friend, is a HUGE debate that has been on going for years and years. It has reached particular fascination and intensity with the prevalence of venomoid snakes but was around long before. I first read of the debate when some major zoos, labs, and other institutions began feeding frozen thawed prey to venomous snakes without letting the snake bite the prey. There are obviously going to be effects of venom in the tissue of the prey but to my knowledge there has not been a study that conclusively shows a significant effect of venom/no venom in digestion.

 

[tyflier]

That, my friend, is a HUGE debate that has been on going for years and years. It has reached particular fascination and intensity with the prevalence of venomoid snakes but was around long before. I first read of the debate when some major zoos, labs, and other institutions began feeding frozen thawed prey to venomous snakes without letting the snake bite the prey. There are obviously going to be effects of venom in the tissue of the prey but to my knowledge there has not been a study that conclusively shows a significant effect of venom/no venom in digestion.

I don't know that it's debateable if there is a difference in the prey. The effects of the venom on prey is well documented, and the absence of the venom will cause a difference in the rapid digestability of the prey. I don't think that this is the "hot button" aspect of the debate, though I admit I haven't followed it as closely or for nearly as long as I should, and I may be wrong in my understanding. Absolutely correct me if I am wrong, please...

I think the biggest debate comes from the side effects, or the potential
thereof. Is there a difference in the overall health or longevity of the species between a hot subject and a venomoid? Is there a difference in the general attitude and character of the species between a hot and a void? Are there risks to the health and well being of the species concerning a venomoid surgery, post-operative, and into long-term care?

I think these are the hot issues that need more research. Hopefully, research such as is being described here will be a step in the right direction towards answering some of these questions more definitively than the assumptions and observations that we currently have...

Again, please correct me if my understanding is wrong or lacking. Any and all links to existing research and data is greatly appreciated as well...

 

[vetusvates]

Beautiful snakes. Thanks for the pics.

 

[medusacoils]

That's extremely interesting. I always thought that venomous reptiles, like spiders, needed that venom to be present to properly digest their meals. Could it be possible that venomous snakes that aren't able to inject their prey with venom before eating, aren't digesting completely and losing out on proteins and other nutrients, or is that the debate?

Thank you Chris, Jeff and Brandon for the edjamacation!

Wayne

 

[El Jefe]

I don't know that it's debateable if there is a difference in the prey. The effects of the venom on prey is well documented, and the absence of the venom will cause a difference in the rapid digestability of the prey.

I agree. Venom does have an effect. The question is, however, does it have a significant effect on digestion and therefore a significant gain to a venomous snake and a loss to a venomoid or a snake that is fed f/t only with no venom injection. Those questions, however, I cannot answer and have not found serious research making such conclusions.

I think the biggest debate comes from the side effects, or the potential
thereof. Is there a difference in the overall health or longevity of the species between a hot subject and a venomoid? Is there a difference in the general attitude and character of the species between a hot and a void? Are there risks to the health and well being of the species concerning a venomoid surgery, post-operative, and into long-term care?

Ah....now that makes it more complicated. In my opinion, using the "no venom" aspect to give evidence for why venomoids are wrong is the incorrect approach. Sure, there may be many other negative aspects to venomoids, but the no venom point is one that anti-venomoids love to use yet there is not clear evidience to say it is true. On the other hand, if it is true, then it opens up an entirely different can of worms that I spoke of before about the people/institutions that feed f/t prey that is not injected with venom.

I think these are the hot issues that need more research. Hopefully, research such as is being described here will be a step in the right direction towards answering some of these questions more definitively than the assumptions and observations that we currently have...

I agree. It will be interesting to see what answers this research may provide.

 

[elipsis1]

The eyes are awesome! thanks for sharing these pics

 

[tyflier]

That's extremely interesting. I always thought that venomous reptiles, like spiders, needed that venom to be present to properly digest their meals. Could it be possible that venomous snakes that aren't able to inject their prey with venom before eating, aren't digesting completely and losing out on proteins and other nutrients, or is that the debate?

Thank you Chris, Jeff and Brandon for the edjamacation!

Wayne

Near as I can tell, that's where most of the debate arises. Is there an adverse side effect to venomous snakes eating prey without envenomating it?

I personally believe that there is most likely some side effect related to incomplete digestion and/or nutrient absorption due to a lack of envenomation. But as far as I know there is no substantial evidence to support nor deny this claims.

It just seems logical to me, as Mother Nature rarely evolves such complex systems for a singularly defensive purpose. Why such powerful haemotoxins just to neutralize prey or defend itself? Why not develope a different and potentially less "expensive"(in terms of creation, developement and deployment of venom) system of neutralizing prey and warding off enemies? And why such incredibly variable levels of toxicity in closely related species known to prey upon the same items, and live in similar habitat and conditions?

Even primarily neurotoxic venoms have, to some degree, haemotoxic properties, and many cause massive tissue damage, even though they are completely capable of neutralizing prey and predator via neurotoxic reactions. So why such powerful tissue destruction potential with no logical requirement?

Like I said, I don't really have any answers or data...just a tone of questions, supositions, assumptions, and what I percieve to be logical conclusions. This research really should take a step in the right direction, and hopefully answer more questions than it creates...

 

[Outcast]

I have to say that Copperheads are my favorite hot snake, so far...lol... They are absolutely beautiful. I wish I could own one, but it is Illegal to import venomous animals into New Mexico... according to the lady at wildlife and fisheries that I spoke to last year... If it wasn't i would be really tempted to get a permit to own them. But, I would be hard pressed to talk my fiance into letting me have one.

 

[Snakewhisperer]

Given your location, chances are good that these are probably A.c. contortrix, not A.c. mokasen. I'm not poisitive, and I can't seem to find an accurate range map at the moment, but I believe that Southern Copperheads are the subspecies most commonly occuring in your range. But I could be wrong...

Gorgeous critters. My second favorite species of snake. I love copperheads, and someday I plan on owning one...or two...

I looked back at the records, and we have mostly southerns, but also 3 northerns