I see what you're saying Wade behind the sarcasm, lol. Certainly if it was real I'd be on board, and I think it's a good idea to be prepared if something like that happened. For the record- my interest in preserving bluefin tuna (assuming it's a scientific approach, etc) is that I find them to be particularly enjoyable to eat. Not because I can imagine them using a litter box or playing with a ball of yarn.
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- Thread starter kathylove
- Start date
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
If it ISN'T true...then it is still a very sad commentary on our government in the "land of the free". That is because it sounds completely believable, and something that doesn't surprise me at all, coming from our highly esteemed and learned politicians these days (yes - sarcasm there).
I understand the sarcasm about the state of politics.
I'm looking at a story though put out by ESPN one day, substantiated by virtually no one else (except that various blogs have bumped it), then all but disavowed by the editor the next day.
Part of my anger with politics comes from stories like this.. I hate to see how people just make garbage up to infuriate people- not that we shouldn't be infuriated if it's true. It may be too early to say about this, but my feeling is the signs are there. We'll see. I can promise if it's true, I'll join the fight even though I like my President a great deal! :cheers:
I'm looking at a story though put out by ESPN one day, substantiated by virtually no one else (except that various blogs have bumped it), then all but disavowed by the editor the next day.
Part of my anger with politics comes from stories like this.. I hate to see how people just make garbage up to infuriate people- not that we shouldn't be infuriated if it's true. It may be too early to say about this, but my feeling is the signs are there. We'll see. I can promise if it's true, I'll join the fight even though I like my President a great deal! :cheers:
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
I figured ESPN was a reliable source. But then, I remember some of the major networks (NBC, maybe? Seems like I remember something about faking car or truck accident results a few years ago?) having been caught up in untruths, too. I can't say I am any more impressed by the media these days than by politicians, lol!
So if anyone wants to post some updates as to the validity of the story, please feel free to do so. I am sure our wonderful politicians and media will soon enough give us something just as bad (or worse) to ponder.
So if anyone wants to post some updates as to the validity of the story, please feel free to do so. I am sure our wonderful politicians and media will soon enough give us something just as bad (or worse) to ponder.
Here's an interesting article as another opinion piece.. http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2778348/espn_and_the_obama_fishing_ban_story_pg3.html?cat=9
Here's the piece this same writer did initially to counter the ESPN one..
http://www.examiner.com/x-37128-Cha...3d9-ESPN-claims-Obama-is-about-to-ban-fishing
An excerpt from that last one:
"I have been writing about these issues in North and South Carolina for over 15 years and I can tell you without hesitation the worst enemy of commercial fishermen has been commercial fishermen. I have been pleading with them for years to explore compromise on these issues, and they will not.
Now they are in trouble, and commercial groups know in a direct fight against environmentalists they will lose. So they are clinging to an amazingly brazen life line: They have decided to scare recreational fishermen in an effort to get recs like me to fight the environmentalists with them.
It is such a hypocritical stance I can't even begin to express it in words. It goes back to years and years of backroom good old boy politics that kept sensible fishing laws out of many places in the U.S. (my home state of North Carolina is a great example, but there are plenty more).
Now, after attacking recreation fishermen for years and fighting them tooth and nail against any efforts to have responsible fisheries management in this country, commercial fishermen are trying to make us their best friends because they are so scared of the environmentalists.
Well, I'm scared too. I'm scared responsible recreational fishermen are going to get lumped together with irresponsible commercial fishermen. That is exactly what folks like Robert Montgomery want to see happen.
Recreation anglers give commercial fishermen more credibility and respect, because in almost every state responsible recreational fishermen have worked hard at things like reasonable size and creel limits on fish and keeping harmful interaction with wildlife to a minimum. Recs have done exactly what the commercial industry as a whole has not done: Be responsible."
Here's the piece this same writer did initially to counter the ESPN one..
http://www.examiner.com/x-37128-Cha...3d9-ESPN-claims-Obama-is-about-to-ban-fishing
An excerpt from that last one:
"I have been writing about these issues in North and South Carolina for over 15 years and I can tell you without hesitation the worst enemy of commercial fishermen has been commercial fishermen. I have been pleading with them for years to explore compromise on these issues, and they will not.
Now they are in trouble, and commercial groups know in a direct fight against environmentalists they will lose. So they are clinging to an amazingly brazen life line: They have decided to scare recreational fishermen in an effort to get recs like me to fight the environmentalists with them.
It is such a hypocritical stance I can't even begin to express it in words. It goes back to years and years of backroom good old boy politics that kept sensible fishing laws out of many places in the U.S. (my home state of North Carolina is a great example, but there are plenty more).
Now, after attacking recreation fishermen for years and fighting them tooth and nail against any efforts to have responsible fisheries management in this country, commercial fishermen are trying to make us their best friends because they are so scared of the environmentalists.
Well, I'm scared too. I'm scared responsible recreational fishermen are going to get lumped together with irresponsible commercial fishermen. That is exactly what folks like Robert Montgomery want to see happen.
Recreation anglers give commercial fishermen more credibility and respect, because in almost every state responsible recreational fishermen have worked hard at things like reasonable size and creel limits on fish and keeping harmful interaction with wildlife to a minimum. Recs have done exactly what the commercial industry as a whole has not done: Be responsible."
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
Everything I know about recreational or commercial fishing...
has come from reading a few mainstream news articles, or listening to a few friends who fish. So I can't speak with any authority whatsoever about the subject. But what I am reading in the linked article above sounds to me like the same thing we reptile breeders are saying. That is: "yes, there are a few irresponsible people among us, as there are in ANY large group of people. And some regulation may be needed. But PLEASE acknowledge that most of us ARE responsible, and PLEASE don't kill our hobby or livelihood due to over-regulation, just to deal with the small number of abusive practitioners in our ranks". It sounds very analogous to our situation to me, according to that article. Is that how you read it, also?
has come from reading a few mainstream news articles, or listening to a few friends who fish. So I can't speak with any authority whatsoever about the subject. But what I am reading in the linked article above sounds to me like the same thing we reptile breeders are saying. That is: "yes, there are a few irresponsible people among us, as there are in ANY large group of people. And some regulation may be needed. But PLEASE acknowledge that most of us ARE responsible, and PLEASE don't kill our hobby or livelihood due to over-regulation, just to deal with the small number of abusive practitioners in our ranks". It sounds very analogous to our situation to me, according to that article. Is that how you read it, also?
I'm seeing it more like he's saying: there is an interest that wants you to think that a fishing ban is coming. That interest is commercial fishermen who likely WILL see limits imposed. The ESPN article seems to be trying to lump together recreational fishermen with them to get their voices. Even though most people believe that recreational fisherman have already been a very responsible bunch.
I know I 'hooked a couple monsters' in my link. If either of them is more to the point I'd suggest the second one. The first link is what the guy wrote after getting a bunch of flack from those who wanted to know "Who are you anyway".. Maybe kind of OT, but I found it first.
Teddy Roosevelt
i loev cronsankes
Teddy Roosevelt
i loev cronsankes
The worst Bush ever had was someone throwing a shoe at him, and he had much lower approval ratings for a longer time. If secret service could protect HIM, they sure as hell can protect Obama.
Meet the new parties, same as the old parties.
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
The last post was only about your first linked article.
As far as the 2nd one, I am just not well enough versed about the subject to know if the recreational anglers are causing much of any environmental problem, or if problems are created pretty much solely by commercial interests.
I do feel that in reptile circles, we have a couple of different problems. With fishing, it is probably pretty much just a problem of over harvesting wild fish, I would guess. We do have that with some species of reptiles, too, and those would probably be only commercial collectors who could have any real impact on populations, not personal use collectors.
Our more major problem lately seems to be concern about invasive species, with a lesser concern about possible public safety. I suppose both dealers and pet owners share some blame. But it is still a fact that there will always be a few irresponsible pet owners, drivers, drinkers, smokers, cell phone users, hunters, anglers, and humans in general, who will create problems for others because of their carelessness. When we try to cure every problem with over reaching legislation, it often causes far more harm than the original problem itself. I would generally support legislation that is based on HONEST AND LOGICAL goals. But I feel that there are at least equal numbers of irresponsible, money driven politicians and journalists as there are irresponsible members of the other groups that need regulation. Honest and logical seems to elude them at least as much as responsibility seems to elude some reptile hobbyists and business people. Most legislative "cures" have very little to do with logic, and everything to do with emotion, and appearances of "having done SOMETHING". So who is accountable to whom?
As far as the 2nd one, I am just not well enough versed about the subject to know if the recreational anglers are causing much of any environmental problem, or if problems are created pretty much solely by commercial interests.
I do feel that in reptile circles, we have a couple of different problems. With fishing, it is probably pretty much just a problem of over harvesting wild fish, I would guess. We do have that with some species of reptiles, too, and those would probably be only commercial collectors who could have any real impact on populations, not personal use collectors.
Our more major problem lately seems to be concern about invasive species, with a lesser concern about possible public safety. I suppose both dealers and pet owners share some blame. But it is still a fact that there will always be a few irresponsible pet owners, drivers, drinkers, smokers, cell phone users, hunters, anglers, and humans in general, who will create problems for others because of their carelessness. When we try to cure every problem with over reaching legislation, it often causes far more harm than the original problem itself. I would generally support legislation that is based on HONEST AND LOGICAL goals. But I feel that there are at least equal numbers of irresponsible, money driven politicians and journalists as there are irresponsible members of the other groups that need regulation. Honest and logical seems to elude them at least as much as responsibility seems to elude some reptile hobbyists and business people. Most legislative "cures" have very little to do with logic, and everything to do with emotion, and appearances of "having done SOMETHING". So who is accountable to whom?
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
The ESPN article seems to be trying to lump together recreational fishermen with them to get their voices...
Yes, I did see that, too. And if it turns out that recreational anglers ARE in trouble, then they WILL need to unite. But it appears that it is too early to say whether that is the case. Guess we will have to wait and see. If they are smart, the hobby anglers will not assume that just because they are not the real problem, that coming regulations will be logical enough to see that, and reflect it. They best stay vigilant! Time will tell...
Yes, I did see that, too. And if it turns out that recreational anglers ARE in trouble, then they WILL need to unite. But it appears that it is too early to say whether that is the case. Guess we will have to wait and see. If they are smart, the hobby anglers will not assume that just because they are not the real problem, that coming regulations will be logical enough to see that, and reflect it. They best stay vigilant! Time will tell...
I agree with much of what you're saying in theory, I guess it's just hard for me to be against or for anything before any legislation becomes public.
Where this is VERY different from the reptile thing is we know what's in the legislation we oppose.
I can't even say whether or not I support the stuff they want to do with commercial fishermen. I just have no idea what it is yet, nor does anyone else as far as I can tell. It's just a study today..
Where this is VERY different from the reptile thing is we know what's in the legislation we oppose.
I can't even say whether or not I support the stuff they want to do with commercial fishermen. I just have no idea what it is yet, nor does anyone else as far as I can tell. It's just a study today..
Certainly nothing wrong with being prepared!
wade
Save The Humans
I am an avid recreational fisherman and have been for 59 years. I can tell you for a fact that fishermen were the first conservationists. Fishermen have been doing habitat improvement since long before all the tree huggers were born. Almost all of the fish that are taken by recreational fisherman are farm raised and planted. The fees that fishermen pay cover the costs of the habitat improvement and the fish. In Utah there is a special fee that in tacked onto the license cost that goes to buying river property and preserving it for wildlife. I think many other states have similar programs.
People who fish for wild fish as I do are primarily catch and release fisherman. I have caught thousands of fish over the last few years. On average I kill about 10 fish a year that we eat.
Fisherman are pretty well organized. We will not be an easy target for PETA and the other groups.
Michael823
New member
It's the same here in NH. I always hear people around here complain about the price of the fishing licenses (which is around $35), but a lot of them don't understand why that is, or where it goes. But when you factor in what the money goes towards, and having the ability to catch as many fish as they allow, it's really worth it's weight in gold. I caught somewhere around a few dozen Trout last year, and kept maybe a dozen (giving some away to family). Well worth the $35, in my opinion.
jazzgeek
The Rule Of Thirds.
In light of Wade's "Miss Me Yet?" post, I take great pride in linking this 11/30/09 article, from the Attleboro (MA) Sun-Chronicle.
"No license, no fishing in ocean"
The two salient - and fun - paragraphs to me are:
"The federal law mandates that states develop registries and charge for fishing. If the state fails to comply, fishermen have to pay a $20 to $30 federal fee instead."
- and -
"The federal law was passed in 2006 under Bush, but is just now taking effect."
If there's going to be rage, let's direct it properly.
They've been usurped for some time now. Consider the EOs from the past administration that a good number of you miss...
============
2009 – E.O. 13484 – E.O. 13488 (5 Executive orders issued)
2008 – E.O. 13454 – E.O. 13483 (30 Executive orders issued)
2007 – E.O. 13422 – E.O. 13453 (31 Executive orders issued)
2006 – E.O. 13395 – E.O. 13421 (27 Executive orders issued)
2005 – E.O. 13369 – E.O. 13394 (26 Executive orders issued)
2004 – E.O. 13324 – E.O. 13368 (45 Executive orders issued)
2003 – E.O. 13283 – E.O. 13323 (41 Executive orders issued)
2002 – E.O. 13252 – E.O. 13282 (31 Executive orders issued)
2001 – E.O. 13198 – E.O. 13251 (54 Executive orders issued)
284 Total Executive orders Issued
============
Doing the math, 284 / 96 = 2.958, so just under three per month.
Under BHO -
2009 - E.O. 13489 - E.O. 13527 (39 Executive orders issued)
2010 - E.O. 13528 - E.O. 13533 (6 Executive orders issued)
284 Total Executive orders Issued
Again, 45 / 14 = 3.214, so a little over three per month.
In that regard, it's a wash. Funny thing, that math.
Dale
"No license, no fishing in ocean"
The two salient - and fun - paragraphs to me are:
"The federal law mandates that states develop registries and charge for fishing. If the state fails to comply, fishermen have to pay a $20 to $30 federal fee instead."
- and -
"The federal law was passed in 2006 under Bush, but is just now taking effect."
If there's going to be rage, let's direct it properly.
They've been usurped for some time now. Consider the EOs from the past administration that a good number of you miss...
============
2009 – E.O. 13484 – E.O. 13488 (5 Executive orders issued)
2008 – E.O. 13454 – E.O. 13483 (30 Executive orders issued)
2007 – E.O. 13422 – E.O. 13453 (31 Executive orders issued)
2006 – E.O. 13395 – E.O. 13421 (27 Executive orders issued)
2005 – E.O. 13369 – E.O. 13394 (26 Executive orders issued)
2004 – E.O. 13324 – E.O. 13368 (45 Executive orders issued)
2003 – E.O. 13283 – E.O. 13323 (41 Executive orders issued)
2002 – E.O. 13252 – E.O. 13282 (31 Executive orders issued)
2001 – E.O. 13198 – E.O. 13251 (54 Executive orders issued)
284 Total Executive orders Issued
============
Doing the math, 284 / 96 = 2.958, so just under three per month.
Under BHO -
2009 - E.O. 13489 - E.O. 13527 (39 Executive orders issued)
2010 - E.O. 13528 - E.O. 13533 (6 Executive orders issued)
284 Total Executive orders Issued
Again, 45 / 14 = 3.214, so a little over three per month.
In that regard, it's a wash. Funny thing, that math.
Dale
jazzgeek
The Rule Of Thirds.
This has always seemed amazing to me...
Americans see it as a right to carry anything up to a tactical shotgun/semi-automatic carbine as a matter of course - yet howl the loudest when some neglected and missguided teen wanders into the refectory and tries to work out, through physical experimentation, how many rounds of 5.56 rimfire NATO it takes to kill a 16 year old girl... (in the case of one very lucky or unlucky teen girl @ columbine - more than 9, which she amazingly survived, and then the girls mother took her own life... nice going on the mothering front love).
You also seem amazed when the politicians you elect based on a promise decide to do whatever they were going to do in the first place and ignore you completely. Or lie blatantly.
When Obama came to power I wrote an essay for a site I am on - and one of the things I said in it was it would actually (sorta) be a good thing if he got grassy knoll'd... and I will tell you for why, because however good he was (or wasnt) that one event would make an unbelievable difference to race relations in the US, in a positive way. I dont think it is likely to happen and I think people are finally wising up to the fact that being black of white doesnt make a difference - someone can be good or bad or indifferent - it doesnt matter their colour.
As to PETA - to quote Sgt Jackrum - "on my honour I am not a violent man..." (some of you will hopefully get the joke there) ... but those people make me cringe and wish I was somewhere where chainguns were legal. They have no interest in animal welfare - its almost like fred phelps for the furry...
Thats not to say that people who worry about snakes dont have a point in the US. Copperheads & Cottonmouths et al - them's pretty - but it just takes one kid with prying fingers and anaphylaxis to have a death on your hands.
The only way is to educate the people concerned with making the laws and the only way you'll do that is walk into their office with a Boa or some similar snake wrapped round your arm and show them they are safe. Unfortunately you are unlikely to get the option since squaddies tend to shoot first and if you think 5.56 hurts wait till the nice neat army bloke introduces you to the pleasures of its 7.62mm big brother...
As to this garbage about reds under the bed - please grow the hell up - you complain about PETA's scare tactics over snakes and then you fall for the government doing the self same thing. A NHS style health service properly set up is a sight better than the disaster area out there at the moment and I speak from bitter experience. It doesnt make you automatically Socialist - it doesnt mean that the Cuban hordes are going to suddenly muscle their way in.... (they'd have to cadge some mechanics and petrol anyway, just to get anything moving for long enough to get to the boats).
Im a natural cynic - its something thats natural in the english anyways and my experiences have naturally enhanced it. I expect the following...
all organisations - no matter how pious - to have an underlying agenda
all politicians - no matter how respectible & in touch - to be bent as a nine bob note and following their own agenda
All corporations - see politicians - especially apple - hmmm, beatings, suicides, underage workers... very responsible.
I used to own a 1964 humber sceptre - 1600cc (85cui) engine - 6 speed manual - 35 MPG average - 100mph capable. The thing was literally bomb proof, comfortable, reliable and had lasted almost 50 years when I had it. cost £996 10s 2d incl taxes in 1964 & £800 when I got it.
Now - Toyota Prius - 1400cc hybrid -5 speed - 99mph downhill with a following gale - 34mpg average - 46mpg if you coddle it. £15,000 plus and its battery pack will die in about 6-7 years - another £4000. not to mention bad brakes and other problems...
if you average out that a company car is replaced every 3 years - that makes over 10 cars that didnt need to be built while the Humber was in use - building is much more poisonous to the environment that just driving ...
Toyota fed you all a line and you fell for it hook line and sinker... If you'd have kept that Plymouth Duster you had in the 70's and kept it nicely tuned you'd still be cleaner - and better off - than lil miss enviro-mentalist who put her self in hock to purchase something that looks like a motorised training shoe.
My point is this - never expect anyone to be honest with you - especially not anyone with power. Never expect that your rights will be respected - especially not if you are in a minority group (and to be fair, snake owners & breeders are a minority).
The more fuss you make about these projected bans the better - but dont expect it to do any good... over 1 million people marched through London to protest the Iraq war - polls said the people hated it even before it started... guess what - It still happened and is still happening - roll on Vietnam II.
The only way you are going to have any effect on the US Govt is simple - money - alot of it. Which if I am right, you dont have...
To be honest - and this is my own personal opinion - I would rather be in a perfect commune (note: not Communist) society than be in what passes for British society - and I prefer that a good sight to what I see happening in America.
I could see all this Obama thing ending in tears when it all kicked off - and lo and behold - its happened. South Park I salute you for seeing it too
Americans see it as a right to carry anything up to a tactical shotgun/semi-automatic carbine as a matter of course - yet howl the loudest when some neglected and missguided teen wanders into the refectory and tries to work out, through physical experimentation, how many rounds of 5.56 rimfire NATO it takes to kill a 16 year old girl... (in the case of one very lucky or unlucky teen girl @ columbine - more than 9, which she amazingly survived, and then the girls mother took her own life... nice going on the mothering front love).
You also seem amazed when the politicians you elect based on a promise decide to do whatever they were going to do in the first place and ignore you completely. Or lie blatantly.
When Obama came to power I wrote an essay for a site I am on - and one of the things I said in it was it would actually (sorta) be a good thing if he got grassy knoll'd... and I will tell you for why, because however good he was (or wasnt) that one event would make an unbelievable difference to race relations in the US, in a positive way. I dont think it is likely to happen and I think people are finally wising up to the fact that being black of white doesnt make a difference - someone can be good or bad or indifferent - it doesnt matter their colour.
As to PETA - to quote Sgt Jackrum - "on my honour I am not a violent man..." (some of you will hopefully get the joke there) ... but those people make me cringe and wish I was somewhere where chainguns were legal. They have no interest in animal welfare - its almost like fred phelps for the furry...
Thats not to say that people who worry about snakes dont have a point in the US. Copperheads & Cottonmouths et al - them's pretty - but it just takes one kid with prying fingers and anaphylaxis to have a death on your hands.
The only way is to educate the people concerned with making the laws and the only way you'll do that is walk into their office with a Boa or some similar snake wrapped round your arm and show them they are safe. Unfortunately you are unlikely to get the option since squaddies tend to shoot first and if you think 5.56 hurts wait till the nice neat army bloke introduces you to the pleasures of its 7.62mm big brother...
As to this garbage about reds under the bed - please grow the hell up - you complain about PETA's scare tactics over snakes and then you fall for the government doing the self same thing. A NHS style health service properly set up is a sight better than the disaster area out there at the moment and I speak from bitter experience. It doesnt make you automatically Socialist - it doesnt mean that the Cuban hordes are going to suddenly muscle their way in.... (they'd have to cadge some mechanics and petrol anyway, just to get anything moving for long enough to get to the boats).
Im a natural cynic - its something thats natural in the english anyways and my experiences have naturally enhanced it. I expect the following...
all organisations - no matter how pious - to have an underlying agenda
all politicians - no matter how respectible & in touch - to be bent as a nine bob note and following their own agenda
All corporations - see politicians - especially apple - hmmm, beatings, suicides, underage workers... very responsible.
I used to own a 1964 humber sceptre - 1600cc (85cui) engine - 6 speed manual - 35 MPG average - 100mph capable. The thing was literally bomb proof, comfortable, reliable and had lasted almost 50 years when I had it. cost £996 10s 2d incl taxes in 1964 & £800 when I got it.
Now - Toyota Prius - 1400cc hybrid -5 speed - 99mph downhill with a following gale - 34mpg average - 46mpg if you coddle it. £15,000 plus and its battery pack will die in about 6-7 years - another £4000. not to mention bad brakes and other problems...
if you average out that a company car is replaced every 3 years - that makes over 10 cars that didnt need to be built while the Humber was in use - building is much more poisonous to the environment that just driving ...
Toyota fed you all a line and you fell for it hook line and sinker... If you'd have kept that Plymouth Duster you had in the 70's and kept it nicely tuned you'd still be cleaner - and better off - than lil miss enviro-mentalist who put her self in hock to purchase something that looks like a motorised training shoe.
My point is this - never expect anyone to be honest with you - especially not anyone with power. Never expect that your rights will be respected - especially not if you are in a minority group (and to be fair, snake owners & breeders are a minority).
The more fuss you make about these projected bans the better - but dont expect it to do any good... over 1 million people marched through London to protest the Iraq war - polls said the people hated it even before it started... guess what - It still happened and is still happening - roll on Vietnam II.
The only way you are going to have any effect on the US Govt is simple - money - alot of it. Which if I am right, you dont have...
To be honest - and this is my own personal opinion - I would rather be in a perfect commune (note: not Communist) society than be in what passes for British society - and I prefer that a good sight to what I see happening in America.
I could see all this Obama thing ending in tears when it all kicked off - and lo and behold - its happened. South Park I salute you for seeing it too