Calls to boycott Arizona are spreading like a virus

[jpccusa]

I don't need an estimate to back me up, the law backs me up.

Obviously the law is not doing a good job backing you up. A proof of this is the almost 12 million illegal immigrants currently in the country.

I guess the law by which you feel backed up needs to be changed in order to work properly.

 

[Dinah]

It just needs to be enforced is all.

And more needs to be done to keep people out, and more needs to be done to make sure that people can come here legally. But I will settle for enforcement as a start

 

[jpccusa]

As for being biased, the estimate is being trumpeted by the the Center for American Progress. All of the people listed as experts that you can contact to get more info about the findings area all email address @centerforamericanprogress.org email address. By their own admissions on their about us page they are a progressive think tank, I didn't just say they are biased because I decided they were. I said they were biased because they divulged their bias right in their about us page.

A simple Google search and I found this:

Raúl Hinojosa-Ojeda : Associate Professor , Chicano Studies
Contact information: 7379 Bunche , (310) 825-8956 , raulhinojosa@[B]comcast.net[/B]

 

[jpccusa]

It just needs to be enforced is all.

And more needs to be done to keep people out, and more needs to be done to make sure that people can come here legally. But I will settle for enforcement as a start

We agree in 2 of the 3 items... We technically agree in the majority of things then.

 

[Tara80]

Tara, I apologize if I have went around in circles for "35" pages trying to redefine definitions to make people understand the reasons why I support a comprehensive immigration reform. I can assure you that if no one had tried to explain their reasons, the conversation would have been much shorter.
If anytime a study contradicts what you (plural) think you will call it biased, one sided, etc. and therefore you'll judge it to be invalid, then just stick to your preconceptions and don't try to justify your reasoning, because there isn't anything that will backup you up (as I haven't seen proof of anything supporting mass deportation, save some KNOWN hate group reports). The idea of "I don't care what would happen to the economy as long as our people are taken care first" is really cute and patriotic, but ultimately it is irresponsible. That idea also deals with "our people" versus "the aliens" when in reality it should be dealt as "we, humans." But again, I know this is really progressive of me for saying it.
Once again, I apologize for being thorough and for having tenacity (as someone that repped me said), but unfortunately I will not save words or hesitate to go back to further explain myself or a concept if needed. Some people like to write and read, others don't... :shrugs:
I for one have learned a few things through this thread. Kathy's idea was something I never heard before. It is a great idea, in my opinion. So let's keep trying to prove our sides right, just like attorneys do, in a civilized and courteous manner. And yes... Feliz cinco de mayo! :cheers:

Many people, not just me have provided you personal experiences. I think that is why this is so frustrating for some people- me included- people here are not providing you with any 'preconceptions' but with real logical every day experiences they have had. I never said anything about mass deportation, that too is illogical because it just plain cannot be accomplished but your idea of just 'legalizing them all' is illogical as well and effects Americans in more ways then we can conceive- in ways that I mentioned in my previous post and am not going to repeat. Reading through this debate I can see that many many people have successfully rebutted you or have provided thoughts and experiences of their own and have either quit debating or have left because your next post is just re-iterating the same thing you've said previously and it would make no sense for them to repost the same thing over again. And most people I see do not vote for mass deportation either but that we need to come to some conclusion on how to deal with this problem. My parents do not deserve to have Mexicans crapping and throwing garbage on their lawns or their tires slashed either.

And as for your statement:

"I don't care what would happen to the economy as long as our people are taken care first" is really cute and patriotic

Again, people have tried explaining to you multiple times throughout this debate that providing job openings at minimum wage for the US (rather than under the counter which again - let me bold I SEE EVERY DAY HERE) would also fix our economy. I HAVE taken economy classes as my humanities and it IS true that our economy can be brought down by illegals working under the counter because plenty of businesses would prefer to work this way to keep a buck and to ensure they get the lowest bid which, again I see here every day. Let me use a comparison- This works the same way with the Corn Snake Market. The main corn breeders who produce a new morph sell the new morph for $1000, lets say someone purchases a breeding pair, power feeds them and then sells the babies for $400. What do you think will a) happen to the original breeder (especially if that is their livelyhood) and b) to the corn snake market when the morphs are dropped in price. I am going to quote someone in Germany who can attest to that:

Yeah thats right.
The market here in Europe nearly crashed 2009.
The prices for a Butter striped went from 250 Euro dow to 110 in just one year! Many other morphs crashed as well.
I like the way, the US breeders try to keep their prices.
I always have higher prices then many others just to hold the market, or at least, the rest of the market.

It hurts, when you see people selling 20 Amels in a small box for 15 Euro as food for snakeeaters just because there are to many and any beginner put his 2 classics together just to get a clutch. I do not tell anyone to not breed, because it really is one of the best moments when you have this hobby, but it is not nessesary to keep all 20 eggs... Thats why the market here is totally down. Because nearly no one understands that. So many are just breeding without thinking....

This works the same way with all businesses. You learn this sort of stuff in economics.
No I do not think that total deportation is a logical conclusion but neither do I think total legalization is either.

 

[Tara80]

The idea of "I don't care what would happen to the economy as long as our people are taken care first" is really cute and patriotic, but ultimately it is irresponsible.

Looking all over on line for any type of 'proof' that removing illegals will effect our economy and I have found NONE. I have found that it is a continuing arguement with a lot of people and both sides have research, ideas and reasons posted all over. From what I can tell, the conclusion is that it wouldn't effect us in the least. It seems that this is the common consensus:

National Public Radio (NPR) reported in March 2006 that: "...overall, illegal immigrants don't have a big impact on U.S. wage rates. The most respected recent studies show that most Americans would notice little difference in their paychecks if illegal immigrants suddenly disappeared from the United States. That's because most Americans don't directly compete with illegal immigrants for jobs. There is one group of Americans that would benefit from a dramatic cut in illegal immigration: high-school dropouts. Most economists agree that the wages of low-skill high-school dropouts are suppressed by somewhere between 3 percent and 8 percent because of competition from immigrants, both legal and illegal. Economists speculate that for the average high-school dropout, that would mean about a $25 a week raise if there were no job competition from immigrants. Illegal immigrants seem to have very little impact on unemployment rates. Undocumented workers certainly do take jobs that would otherwise go to legal workers. But undocumented workers also create demand that leads to new jobs. They buy food and cars and cell phones, they get haircuts and go to restaurants. On average, there is close to no net impact on the unemployment rate."[19]

Research by George Borjas (Robert W. Scrivner Professor of Economics and Social Policy at Harvard University) found that the influx of immigrants (both legal and illegal) from Mexico and Central American from 1980 to 2000 accounted for a 3.7% wage loss for American workers (4.5% for black Americans and 5% for Hispanic Americans). Borjas found that wage depression was greatest for workers without a high school diploma (a 7.4% reduction) because these workers face the most direct competition with immigrants, legal and illegal.

So, take that however you would like. That is just from searching online for a few minutes (due to being at work, I am quite limited on how much time I have to find and read articles for either side- this already used up my lunch and breaks). Granted that was taken in 2006 but right now there are more Americans on average looking for all of these jobs that 'high school drop outs' would take. I too know a few good people who would like one of these jobs to be able to make their house payment (including brush picking).

 

[TandJ]

If I am not mistaken, Federal law requires that you have "your papers" on you at all times as an immigrant. Furthermore, it requires that an immigration officer can ask you for them at anytime.

You are not mistaken, your are 100% correct.. Again, as a big ole corn feed white boy, I have been pulled aside many a time with immigration or border guards.. Is it cause I am hispanic? Nope, its because I always look suspicious I guess.. Its kind of like checking ID when you use your credit card... Its a pain in the ass at first but then you get used to the idea and realize its not such a bad thing to happen..


Well it could be considered racial profiling, but the thing is what are the most common Illegals in Arizona? Its not Canadians ( actually thats the State of Florida ) .. I have to respctfully disagree with a few people here.. Keep in mind, I am not racist to consider people to be of a race, because most of us are part of one race, and that would be the human race.. I will irriterate what my parents taught me, value the person for their real worth, not by the colour of their skin ...

 

[UniqueSnakes]

awwwwwww!!!!!!
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AlxCyFAFkE4Om7_UUY4ynZI5nYcB?slug=ap-obama-lossuns

 

[jpccusa]

Many people, not just me have provided you personal experiences. I think that is why this is so frustrating for some people- me included- people here are not providing you with any 'preconceptions' but with real logical every day experiences they have had.

Thanks for telling me/us your personal experiences. I really can see how frustrating it would be to have the crops stolen and trash all over the property.

I never said anything about mass deportation, that too is illogical because it just plain cannot be accomplished but your idea of just 'legalizing them all' is illogical as well and effects Americans in more ways then we can conceive- in ways that I mentioned in my previous post and am not going to repeat... And most people I see do not vote for mass deportation either but that we need to come to some conclusion on how to deal with this problem.

I never said to "legalize them all" either. That is not how I think the problem would be solved, that's why I like Kathy's idea, and that's why I wrote the following on post #247

I need to clarify something: my argument is not that illegals do the job that nobody wants therefore we need to keep them around. My argument is that they are currently doing it for a lower wage. To send everyone "home" would mean a period of learning curve (lower productivity) and higher wages (higher cost to produce). That alone could bankrupt many businesses.
Besides, why send those already here "home" instead of making them pay for their "lack of civil character" with fines, pay back taxes, learn English and assimilate the culture, go to the back of the very long immigration line, and still keep them working legally?
The unemployment rate is high, I know, but that is due to recession and not immigration, although I admit it contributes to the problem. Once the economy starts to recover, unemployment rate will go down... with or without illegals here.

The text in bold is missing "background check," another condition that illegal immigrants would have to meet in order to qualify according to the latest few Immigration Reform ideas proposed. But that is clear that not every illegal immigrant will have a chance to be legalized. That is not what I want either.

Now, plenty of people are pro mass deportation. Plenty said "enforce the law currently in place," which means find, capture, and deport. I am glad you think that would be illogical.

Again, people have tried explaining to you multiple times throughout this debate that providing job openings at minimum wage for the US (rather than under the counter which again - let me bold I SEE EVERY DAY HERE) would also fix our economy. I HAVE taken economy classes as my humanities and it IS true that our economy can be brought down by illegals working under the counter because plenty of businesses would prefer to work this way to keep a buck and to ensure they get the lowest bid which, again I see here every day. Let me use a comparison- This works the same way with the Corn Snake Market. The main corn breeders who produce a new morph sell the new morph for $1000, lets say someone purchases a breeding pair, power feeds them and then sells the babies for $400. What do you think will a) happen to the original breeder (especially if that is their livelyhood) and b) to the corn snake market when the morphs are dropped in price... This works the same way with all businesses. You learn this sort of stuff in economics.

Well, so perhaps you think most illegals work under the table while I think most don't. I will try to find some kind of statistic data and get back to you on this.
Since I think most illegal immigrants work above the table (meaning receiving at least minimum wage, having income taxes deducted, etc.), to give all their jobs to Americans would mean reduced production (I couldn't pick strawberries as fast as they can, for example) and other negative side effects I discussed before.

No I do not think that total deportation is a logical conclusion but neither do I think total legalization is either.

We agree 100% on this. I wish everyone would think like us Tara. :cheers:

 

[danielle]

What does being Hispanic have to do with the rate at which one can pick strawberries or anything else for that matter? I have yet to see one statistic where it has been shown the bulk of illegals work on the table, pay taxes, or anything even close. Do some? Sure with stolen SS numbers of deceased individuals and forged documents. We have day laborer sites all over my area- you aren't going to tell me they take their cash wages to the IRS so they can pay taxes are you? No one here has said send every illegal back- you know why? It would cost our country too much money we don't have, and they would all hop the border again- big waste of tax dollars there.

I agree with immigration reform which would include background checks, payment of back taxes, the ability to somewhat speak english paid for by the illegal and not the state, community service, and other forms of repayment for health care costs, welfare, and other services they illegally obtained- but that won't fly. Illegals don't come here and strike it rich- they don't have the ability to prove what they earned, where, and don't have the funds to repay our government. The financial burden to the illegal would be enough to prevent them from becoming legal and negate the purpose of reform in the first place.

I also believe those who did conform to these standards and repay their debt would no longer work at many minimum wage jobs, as farm hands, or in construction because they would now have the ability to better their education and status in society just like every generation of immigrants has done. My family came here in the 60's mostly and worked as turkey farmers in Georgia, bused tables, cooked, cleaned, and other low pay jobs until they could save and obtain an education. Once that happened they got better paying jobs passing on their work and education ethic to me, my siblings, and cousins- and believe me we ALL obtained college degrees seeing how hard their life was before. Immigrants don't come here to pick strawberries or clean your house, and your assumption we need them here to do our grunt work is demeaning to say the least. They come here to move up in life and will given the opportunity leaving these lower paying jobs for those who did not obtain an education, are young, or new to the country as they once were

The bottom line is Arizona is financially overwhelmed by the number of illegals they house and with the lack of federal backup have every right to at least try to find a solution to minimize their problem. It's not right to support people coming here illegally, working illegally, taking wages from others in need, and using federal and state funds to support themselves and family. In no other country would this fly why should the US be any different?

 

[Tara80]

Well said Danielle, well said.

In no other country would this fly why should the US be any different?

This is one thing that does make our country so great, we DO care (over all) and we DO help others. I love the heart and hope this country provides. We just have to do it intelligently. We cannot feed every hungry mouth and we cannot house and/or educate every individual in poverty and attempting to do so would potentially cause a Societal and Economic Collapse. Which is why I say, when it comes down to it we need to focus on our own children, not feed the neighbor's children when there isn't enough food.

 

[jpccusa]

What does being Hispanic have to do with the rate at which one can pick strawberries or anything else for that matter? I have yet to see one statistic where it has been shown the bulk of illegals work on the table, pay taxes, or anything even close. Do some? Sure with stolen SS numbers of deceased individuals and forged documents. We have day laborer sites all over my area- you aren't going to tell me they take their cash wages to the IRS so they can pay taxes are you? No one here has said send every illegal back- you know why? It would cost our country too much money we don't have, and they would all hop the border again- big waste of tax dollars there.

I agree with immigration reform which would include background checks, payment of back taxes, the ability to somewhat speak english paid for by the illegal and not the state, community service, and other forms of repayment for health care costs, welfare, and other services they illegally obtained- but that won't fly. Illegals don't come here and strike it rich- they don't have the ability to prove what they earned, where, and don't have the funds to repay our government. The financial burden to the illegal would be enough to prevent them from becoming legal and negate the purpose of reform in the first place.

I also believe those who did conform to these standards and repay their debt would no longer work at many minimum wage jobs, as farm hands, or in construction because they would now have the ability to better their education and status in society just like every generation of immigrants has done. My family came here in the 60's mostly and worked as turkey farmers in Georgia, bused tables, cooked, cleaned, and other low pay jobs until they could save and obtain an education. Once that happened they got better paying jobs passing on their work and education ethic to me, my siblings, and cousins- and believe me we ALL obtained college degrees seeing how hard their life was before. Immigrants don't come here to pick strawberries or clean your house, and your assumption we need them here to do our grunt work is demeaning to say the least. They come here to move up in life and will given the opportunity leaving these lower paying jobs for those who did not obtain an education, are young, or new to the country as they once were

The bottom line is Arizona is financially overwhelmed by the number of illegals they house and with the lack of federal backup have every right to at least try to find a solution to minimize their problem. It's not right to support people coming here illegally, working illegally, taking wages from others in need, and using federal and state funds to support themselves and family. In no other country would this fly why should the US be any different?

I am just saying they have been doing for X number of years, therefore they have more experience than I do, making them fast pickers. Nothing to do with ethnicity. Anyone can be just as fast, with the same amount of training (the learning curve I mention before).

Yes, some do. I know them personally (I live in Southern California) and actually they didn't steal identities and SS numbers. They simply overstayed their work visas.

I never said we should keep them around because they will forever do our "dirty work." What I do think is that they will start in low paying jobs and then grow if we give them the opportunity to. Hopefully with an immigration reform, a guest workers program would also be implemented, supplying the economy with more immigrants willing to do those jobs.

I agree. I am in favor of increasing border security, solve the issue of illegal immigrants already here (immigration reform), and stop people from wanting to come here illegally and from working under the table (biometric SS card?).

 

[Dinah]

I never said we should keep them around because they will forever do our "dirty work." What I do think is that they will start in low paying jobs and then grow if we give them the opportunity to.

10 % of all American workers are unemployed thats a whole lot of people, I bet that a whole bunch of them would love to do those jobs, those Americans who are here legally would also love to be given an opportunity for their jobs and wages to grow. Why are we focused on giving people who come here and break our laws these opportunities? Why aren't we focusing on making sure these opportunities are going to people who are here legally and respectful of our laws?

 

[jpccusa]

10 % of all American workers are unemployed thats a whole lot of people, I bet that a whole bunch of them would love to do those jobs, those Americans who are here legally would also love to be given an opportunity for their jobs and wages to grow. Why are we focused on giving people who come here and break our laws these opportunities? Why aren't we focusing on making sure these opportunities are going to people who are here legally and respectful of our laws?

I will be accused of going around in circles because of you Nellie! :nyah:

I am having a rough morning at work, so my writing style may be a little different, but here is how I think the "plan of action" should go (NOTE: this is extremely oversimplified):

1- Since we can't deport 11+ million people and give all their jobs to Americans (as Tara said, that is illogical), we need to have a Comprehensive Immigration Reform which would allow part of those illegal immigrants (only the qualified ones) to become legal.

2- With unemployment rate still at 10% (supposing the economy still didn't get better by the time #1 happens) but with the "new legals to be" paying back taxes, fines, etc. and with many starting to make more money, the economic gap that exists during a recession would start to close because a) "new legals" with higher pay than before (minimum wage) would spend more b) the penalty payments they have to pay to become legal and c) "New legals" who previously had decent jobs now have the chance to keep advancing on their careers (hence spending more as well).

3- With the country getting out of the recession, more companies would start to invest again, more people would start to spend again, the economy gets going again. Unemployment rate falls and Americans are hired again.

4- From this point on, job competition would take care of who should be/stay employed. If you are a fast strawberry picker, you get the job at the strawberry farm. If you don't type fast, the "new legal" get the job at the newspaper.

If you don't see how this would work, could you try to show me your "plan of action?"

 

[danielle]

I'm not convinced illegals would pay back their back taxes- how could they even prove where they were employed since many are day laborers, roaming farmers, and nomadic in nature with their working habits moving often? What states would receive these back taxes and how would that be enforced? Your solution is not a bad one, but it seems as illogical as deporting 11-15 million people. What would qualify even mean?

The problem is illegals have lived here illegally by staying under the radar so to speak- their is little record of their existence here. The few that would consider coming forward and paying for their illegal stay would find themselves in a financial bind since it takes years to move up the corporate ladder even after becoming educated- where would this pay back money come from? I feel financial penalties are great and fair on paper, but you can't realistically pay back what you don't have. This alone negates them having the ability to spend more in our economy when their legal status becomes linked to great debt if that debt could even be figured in the first place which I doubt it can. I don't have a plan which is why I support Arizona in TRYING something- something is better than nothing IMO. Deporting every illegal would cost billions and they would slowly filter back, asking them to come up with a way to prove what they have earned while here isn't reliable or feasible either and would still cost our country billions to implement and sustain such a program to oversee this process, and we can't even say we have a way or the funding to identify every illegal across the country. We lose is the bottom line We can't afford to say just come on in either so my first step would be stringent border security. You hop the border without identification you should be held for a week- if after a week it can't be determined you are here legally or at least have a visa for work or education you should be shot- yes I said it. Not because I condone killing people but because some sort of clear message needs to be sent to those who are considering coming here illegally- come at your own risk! I would hope this would deter and lesson our illegal population while we sort out our current illegal population. It's impossible to prevent a flood if you can't stop the leak honestly. With fewer people trying to hop our border we could focus on how to make a portion of our illegal population legal, how to get a return on their previous tax free stay here without hindering their ability to support themselves and family, and how to deport the remaining population who refuses repayment, has a criminal background back home, or has commented crimes other then coming here illegally on our soil.

May sound harsh but honestly something has to be done- our country is fighting a war off our soil while ignoring the one we've had going on here for decades. Bring our troops home to defend our border

 

[tsst]

...If you don't see how this would work, could you try to show me your "plan of action?"

As you stated this too would be over simplified.


- increase border control 100 fold essentially slowing border hops to a trickle or preferably none (use national guard or even private contractors, fences walls etc)
- immigration reform to a more common sense approach (NO amnesty period) by common sense that does not imply opening the flood gates.
- reform should include the elimination of employment gaps that allow illegals to work (essentially eliminate the draw to illegally hop the border for a job)(assist in not needing to deport, no reason to stay)
- it still should be earned (knowing this country, the language, assimilation vs conversion, waiting period, etc)
- first step in legalization is entering legally.
- if here illegally you must voluntarily leave. (no need to deport)
- when leaving you must relinquish all forged documents and declare length of illegal time in country (hard to prove but school records and employment records can assist)
- those that declared employment would be given priority but would also be penalized for their illegal time (longer employment status would give priority but also included higher penalty)(maybe double tax rate for a period equal to their illegal time and fines for each social service used)
- in return you receive a waiting number for re-entry (must be able to prove identity when re-entering and pay for ALL the legal paper work to enter so there is no burden to existing tax payers)
- if no employment status was declared you go to the very end of the line, if status was declared you go to back of declared line but in front of all non-declared status)
- must agree to use English versions of all government documents (I don't have a problem with businesses catering to their clients,ie Spanish menus etc, but I do take issue with million$ being spent on bi-lingual gov docs)
- once legally here you are for lack of a better term on a 2 year probationary period (with guidelines that include not assisting illegals directly or indirectly and not breaking any laws)
- if there is a probation violation, depending on degree, it results in a 6 month deportation on first offense, 2 years on second and permanent on third (with assisting illegals given a major violation status)
- should not be granted minority status for affirmative action type programs (should not be given any priority for a job)
- migrant workers should be taxed at highest rate to balance revenue leaving US
- criminal records must be declared and processed with assistance from the losing government and evaluated (if not declared and it is later found it should result in extreme consequences)
- reform should be a living document that can be readily revised for none working parts


(legal disclaimer: I reserve the right to add, subtract or totally abandon these ideas at any time without prior warning )

 

[Cornsnake124]

As you stated this too would be over simplified.


- increase border control 100 fold essentially slowing border hops to a trickle or preferably none (use national guard or even private contractors, fences walls etc)
- immigration reform to a more common sense approach (NO amnesty period) by common sense that does not imply opening the flood gates.
- reform should include the elimination of employment gaps that allow illegals to work (essentially eliminate the draw to illegally hop the border for a job)(assist in not needing to deport, no reason to stay)
- it still should be earned (knowing this country, the language, assimilation vs conversion, waiting period, etc)
- first step in legalization is entering legally.
- if here illegally you must voluntarily leave. (no need to deport)
- when leaving you must relinquish all forged documents and declare length of illegal time in country (hard to prove but school records and employment records can assist)
- those that declared employment would be given priority but would also be penalized for their illegal time (longer employment status would give priority but also included higher penalty)(maybe double tax rate for a period equal to their illegal time and fines for each social service used)
- in return you receive a waiting number for re-entry (must be able to prove identity when re-entering and pay for ALL the legal paper work to enter so there is no burden to existing tax payers)
- if no employment status was declared you go to the very end of the line, if status was declared you go to back of declared line but in front of all non-declared status)
- must agree to use English versions of all government documents (I don't have a problem with businesses catering to their clients,ie Spanish menus etc, but I do take issue with million$ being spent on bi-lingual gov docs)
- once legally here you are for lack of a better term on a 2 year probationary period (with guidelines that include not assisting illegals directly or indirectly and not breaking any laws)
- if there is a probation violation, depending on degree, it results in a 6 month deportation on first offense, 2 years on second and permanent on third (with assisting illegals given a major violation status)
- should not be granted minority status for affirmative action type programs (should not be given any priority for a job)
- migrant workers should be taxed at highest rate to balance revenue leaving US
- criminal records must be declared and processed with assistance from the losing government and evaluated (if not declared and it is later found it should result in extreme consequences)
- reform should be a living document that can be readily revised for none working parts


(legal disclaimer: I reserve the right to add, subtract or totally abandon these ideas at any time without prior warning )

agree COMPLETELY!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Cornsnake124]

but if I can change at least one I am pretty happy about it.

What I asked on my previous post was for you to provide some kind of report put out by conservative organizations. I believe you don't have that. How are you, then, convinced that mass deportation would improve the unemployment rate hence making it easier for people that, like you, are having/had a very hard time finding a job that supposedly is being occupied by an illegal immigrant? Is that a conclusion you reached on your own? Popular belief amongst people in your area?... [/QUOTE]
Because the jobs that are now held by illegals could be filled by legal americans.

But see, you would put the country's economy in jeopardy simply because you CHOOSE to be non-supportive and unsympathetic to law breakers. They aren't asking for pardon (amnesty). They are asking to be allowed to pay for their "crimes" (fines, taxes, etc.) and yet be allowed to improve this country's economy (no deportation).

EVERYONE broke laws before so don't be so harsh on EVERYONE.

1. it would actually help the economy.
2. Why would i sympathize with someone who broke the law?
3. You want to know how they will pay? DEPORTATION!!!!! How else are they going to pay? What are we going to do with them? Let them stay?

The idea of "I don't care what would happen to the economy as long as our people are taken care first" is really cute and patriotic, but ultimately it is irresponsible. That idea also deals with "our people" versus "the aliens" when in reality it should be dealt as "we, humans." But again, I know this is really progressive of me for saying it.

Problem is that nothing will happen to the economy, it might even get better... And why wouldn't we care for our citizens before illegals? your "we humans" is something that should be repelled with all forces of our being. If we care for other countries and people who break our laws by coming here illegally more than our own law abiding citizens... What will happen to this great nation?

Obviously the law is not doing a good job backing you up. A proof of this is the almost 12 million illegal immigrants currently in the country.

Thats because the laws are not being enforced!!!!!

A simple Google search and I found this:

I dont get it, but what do i care if a hispanic is a professor? its a free country...

to give all their jobs to Americans would mean reduced production (I couldn't pick strawberries as fast as they can, for example) and other negative side effects I discussed before.

It wouldnt be if they were properly trained and got some picking experience.... the way you talk "americans workers are bad economy wreckers, and we have to have illegals in the work force to do anything because if any americans had any lower class jobs the country will end!"
Why do you not like citizens making money doing something and using the money to boost the us economy.

I wish everyone would think like us

Why, so we could have a wrecked economy, illegals who arent illegals but not citizens, and a work force with virtually no citizens?

and actually they didn't steal identities and SS numbers. They simply overstayed their work visas.

Not true for all of them... saying that they over stayed there visas makes it sound like its just fine and that they didn't break the law by doing it..... They should be deported for their crime on the US...

Immigration Reform which would allow part of those illegal immigrants (only the qualified ones) to become legal.

Instead of filling those jobs with legal americans or immigrants... (strengthens point a few paragraphs above)

I gotta go feed my bottle calves, more posts later!

 

[jpccusa]

The AZ police is getting creative



And this is a random article about the impact of the AZ boycott effects that I stumbled upon while reading the news this morning.

 

[tsst]

View attachment 125943

And this is a random article about the impact of the AZ boycott effects that I stumbled upon while reading the news this morning.

Hopefully the wise voters of AZ boycott Congressman Raul Grijalva during the next election. Anyone calling for a boycott on his own constituents would seemingly NOT have their best interest at heart. :shrugs: