Calls to boycott Arizona are spreading like a virus

[jpccusa]

The problem, in my point of view, is that the economy depends on illegal immigrants.
When people argue for enforcement only (deportation, making E-Verify mandatory, etc.) I wonder what would happen if 11 million disappeared from the work force.
Now that is something I would not like to see.
At least immigrants would have where to go, but what about those who don't (Americans)?
That's why the government needs to put a plug at where illegal immigrants are coming from (border security) or what they are coming for (jobs) and then help those already here to become legal (path to citizenship).

 

[wade]

JP, I understand what you are saying but I don't think I agree with you. Right now unemployment is at an all time high and it does not consider unemployed aliens because they are not in the system. The unemployment figures come for those people collecting unemployment insurance. So first off, there are a lot of people looking for work and not finding jobs. I know some of them are dead beats, but I think the majority of them would like to work if they could.

As the job market dried up many or most of the illegal aliens went to greener pastures or went home. We are still functioning without them. As the job market comes back the currently unemployed will fill those slots.

I don't like the argument that Mexicans are doing the job nobody wants. That may be true to some extent but not all. The Mexicans that work for me are highly skilled craftsman and are paid the top of the pay scale. Those immigrating may not have a lot of formal education but I don't like the argument they are going to be street sweepers and garbage men because that really isn't true.

 

[wstphal]

I don't like the argument that Mexicans are doing the job nobody wants. That may be true to some extent but not all. The Mexicans that work for me are highly skilled craftsman and are paid the top of the pay scale. Those immigrating may not have a lot of formal education but I don't like the argument they are going to be street sweepers and garbage men because that really isn't true.

Wade, you are a LEGAL employer. The Mexicans you hire are LEGALLY here. Those are much more likely to be skilled and to ask for & get high wages. The illegals are doing jobs that require minimal skills (landscaping, house cleaning) and receiving very poor pay for it. I don't think American workers want those jobs at those wages.

 

[The_Thunderer]

I actually have an Hispanic friend, legally here, who used to have a landscaping business. He mentioned that he was driven out of business because of the lower paid illegals. Now if the illegals were to leave, people would still have landscaping that needed to be done and would therefore be more likely to pay a higher price to have it done by the person legally here to do it.

I also don't like the argument that illegals do the jobs that no one else does. My dad & his brothers used to work the fields as youths. Then my father joined the US Army and was able to get out of that life - as were my Uncles who used construction as a way out. One of my Uncles on my mom's side used to work the fields until very recently when health problems got in the way.

Heck, I've even thought about working late night as a cleaning person at hotels (since I'm up ANYWAY )... but, of course, those jobs are mostly taken by those of Hispanic origin (both legal and illegal) and one of the big requirements is that you speak Spanish (which I think is completely BUNK, since we live here in the US). While I can get away with my Spanish (and could probably pick it up again VERY quickly), I sometimes feel it really isn't worth the hassle.

I realize my examples may be anecdotal... but they're still real examples from my personal experience.

 

[wstphal]

Now if the illegals were to leave, people would still have landscaping that needed to be done and would therefore be more likely to pay a higher price to have it done by the person legally here to do it.

I agree with this to some extent. Some people would just let the landscaping not get done, others would pay more to have it done.

I also don't like the argument that illegals do the jobs that no one else does. My dad & his brothers used to work the fields as youths. Then my father joined the US Army and was able to get out of that life - as were my Uncles who used construction as a way out. One of my Uncles on my mom's side used to work the fields until very recently when health problems got in the way.

They do jobs that Americans don't want to do for the wages that are offered. US residents tend to want higher pay and less physical labor, and illegal immigrants are willing to take lower pay and more physical work because it is STILL BETTER than the situation in their country of origin. If the wages went up, Americans would consider those jobs. Garbage collecting is a nasty job, physical effort and exposure to all kinds of weather, but US residents take those jobs because the $$ is decent.

 

[wade]

Garbage collection is usually contracted my municipalities and highly regulated. They can't cheat and get away with it.

I'm not arguing with Betsy because she is the smartest person I know. But........
I have all my landscaping done by others, and the company that does my yard doesn't have any Mexicans in their employ. It is not a policy it just happens to be the way it is. I think most of the guys that work in my yard are drug addicts.

 

[jpccusa]

I need to clarify something: my argument is not that illegals do the job that nobody wants therefore we need to keep them around. My argument is that they are currently doing it for a lower wage. To send everyone "home" would mean a period of learning curve (lower productivity) and higher wages (higher cost to produce). That alone could bankrupt many businesses.
Besides, why send those already here "home" instead of making them pay for their "lack of civil character" with fines, pay back taxes, learn English and assimilate the culture, go to the back of the very long immigration line, and still keep them working legally?
The unemployment rate is high, I know, but that is due to recession and not immigration, although I admit it contributes to the problem. Once the economy starts to recover, unemployment rate will go down... with or without illegals here.

 

[wade]

If they become legal we will have to pay them minimum wage. If the companies that are cheating and hiring illegals are going to go broke because they have to pay minimum wage so be it. Nobody should be asked to work for less than minimum wage.

 

[wstphal]

Garbage collection is usually contracted my municipalities and highly regulated. They can't cheat and get away with it.

Yeah, it's usually run by the municipalities & that means unions which in turn produces high wages,

{QUOTE=wade;1109512]I'm not arguing with Betsy because she is the smartest person I know. But........
I have all my landscaping done by others, and the company that does my yard doesn't have any Mexicans in their employ. It is not a policy it just happens to be the way it is. I think most of the guys that work in my yard are drug addicts.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Wade! Drug abusers who are trying to get back to gainful employment once they are clean have a really hard time getting jobs. Expecially if they did a trip thru the legal system before getting clean. No one, and I mean no one, will hire them. So landscaping is one of the jobs they end up taking because they do not have other options. I knew a man with a graduate level degree and all kinds of experience who got hooked, got arrested, lost his job & wound up doing landscaping because the landscaper was willing to give him a job, admittedly at minimum wage for very hard work Illegal immigrants are even cheaper workers, so you must have hired an honest landscaping company that checks & hires legal workers!

It's really not that I think there are jobs that Americans won't do. It's that Americans want higher wages for those undesirable jobs than illegals do, so unethical people would rather hire the illegal.

 

[jpccusa]

If they become legal we will have to pay them minimum wage. If the companies that are cheating and hiring illegals are going to go broke because they have to pay minimum wage so be it. Nobody should be asked to work for less than minimum wage.

But you are assuming we have 11 million underpaid workers when in reality we have everything from that to very well paid ones. While many workers receive less than the minimum wage (obligatorily under the table), the majority are in the payroll of companies (using fake SSN).
And as an example for a well paid illegal immigrant, I have a friend who gets paid almost $100,000 a year working as a clinical consultant (I think that is her title). :bang:

 

[wade]

So if they are paid above the table how will their absence make companies go broke?

 

[jpccusa]

So if they are paid above the table how will their absence make companies go broke?

There would still be a period of learning (lower productivity) for new hires, and many of those new hires would not want to work for a minimum wage (higher cost). Why do you think services in general (fast food, office cleaning, etc.) are currently being performed by immigrants (both legals and illegals)? Because they don't mind the work for minimum wages.

Besides, I am still taking into consideration the companies who do pay under the table.

 

[Buzzard]

I think the point is totally lost here..... the word "Illegal"..... Wheather you agree with the fact that they take lower, under the table, jobs that Americans normally wouldnt take or not. They are illegal. I think we all agree the Feds are not doing enough. So the states, like AZ, are doing what they can to protect its people and its income base. Do the simple math and you will see taxes are affected a great deal by illegal immigrants and the employeers that hire them. I'm sorry to beat a dead horse with the word illegal but I argue like a lawyer sometimes. No matter what other things people might come up with to debate this situation the truth of the matter is that the "illegals" in this nation are here against our laws and rules. In my opinion they need to be deported back to their country of Origin with all due hast when caught.

 

[wade]

I agree Mr. Buzzard. I would like it better if you could figure out a way to keep them from returning tomorrow.

 

[Buzzard]

I agree Mr. Buzzard. I would like it better if you could figure out a way to keep them from returning tomorrow.

Me to ...


illegal today.....illegal tomorrow.....

 

[tsst]

I agree Mr. Buzzard. I would like it better if you could figure out a way to keep them from returning tomorrow.

Instead of dropping them off in Tijuana or Juarez take them to Tapachula. At least they would have to travel 1500 miles to get back to our border. :grin01:

 

[starsevol]

I see the federal government taking on many duties that are not granted to it in the Constitution. Protecting our borders is a BASIC duty that should take priority over health care, education, health and human services, SSI, python bans and all the other crap not specifically mentioned....

 

[Dinah]

I just cannot see how the argument that they do the jobs that American's don't want can be true. I would consider myself to be comfortably middle class and extremely fortunate because I am able to stay home with the kids and not work, but I am not to proud to clean houses or do some yard work, or make some burgers if that is what needs to be done to take care of my family. My husband lost his job last year when his company had to make cuts. Him and I are both educated, nice, professional, people. We both have great resumes, great references, and every former employer that we have had even the one that laid my husband off, had nothing but generous things to say about us. Him and I both put out resumes and applications every day to anywhere you could think, from work in our respective fields to flipping burgers and cleaning houses, and nobody was willing to hire us. Nobody! It took 6 months of both him and me looking for work everyday for him to get hired somewhere. We were lucky because we had emergency savings and the house/land are paid, but I just cannot imagine trying to survive on $275 (which is the FL max unemployment benefit per week). And I definitely cannot imagine that me or that anyone else who is (able bodied) on unemployment would pass up a job doing landscaping or cleaning houses, just because it is hard or hot or whatever. I don't care what the job is, if all you have is 275 a week to live on and to provide for you family, then any job that pays more than 275 is worth doing. Having illegals employed and having shady businesses benefit is a slight to the people who are working really hard to find a job and do the right things, and it is a slight to the businesses who are following the laws and losing bids/jobs because of it.

I do not pretend to think that illegals are some how less deserving of opportunities and such, I try to treat everything and especially people with dignity and respect, and I do understand that life where they came from often times made them desperate and that is why they came here. But ultimately they began their relationship with this country as outlaws, when they chose to come here illegally. If you sneak into a country, it should be expected that if found, you will be sent away. Just like if you rob a bank, it should be expected that you would not get to keep the money you stole if you get caught.

 

[wade]

Dinah, I agree with you. I'm sorry for this quote but I just couldn't pass it up.

Him and I are both educated, nice, professional, people.

 

[jpccusa]

In my opinion they need to be deported back to their country of Origin with all due hast when caught.

And we are back to square 1. :awcrap:

It is unpractical to be done, unsafe for the economy, and inhumane for those already here, in my opinion.

Him and I are both educated, nice, professional, people.

So are many of the illegal immigrants (just making sure Wade's post doesn't go unnoticed. I just couldn't pass that up).