Calls to boycott Arizona are spreading like a virus

[jpccusa]

The author did mention back taxes.

I don't think that is a penalty for breaking the law... I think that is just mitigation of damages to the government.

 

[Outcast]

I don't think that is a penalty for breaking the law... I think that is just mitigation of damages to the government.

Yeah, I thought of that after I posted and didn't want to double post. I believe if they allow the current Illegals here they should fine them and make them pay back taxes, and also make them pay for language teachers so that they learn our language (for the ones who don't speak English).

I am pretty sure that the US still doesn't have a set language, but it would be nice if they would learn the most used language in the US.

 

[wstphal]

I am pretty sure that the US still doesn't have a set language, but it would be nice if they would learn the most used language in the US.

Pretty soon now, though, that WILL be Spanish! So we can't say it that way, we have to say that they must learn English.

My ancestors have been in this country for a while. So I can't contribute much in some ways. But one thing I will say. My dad's people were all from Germany. The oldest generation never had great English but they managed and their kids were fully & fluently bilingual. The culture, the music, the food & the language were fully preserved ALONGSIDE English language use & being fully involved in being US citizens, including volunteering for military service. I find it hard to believe that new immigrants can't do that. Why do they have to speak [insert language here] and ONLY that? Why can't they speak BOTH like my dad's people all did? My dad's family were proudly German-American long before hyphenation, and maintained ties with Germany until WWI came along, and then again after WWII.

 

[danielle]

We both both English and Italian in my home- it's just not that hard at all. While in the home you speak to your child in your native language and when outside the home only in English unless your about to strangle them,lol

The problem is most illegals do not even speak English at all so they can't pass it down to their children which is weird because in most countries English is taught as a mandatory second language. I think schools should instate a second language as mandatory here though as well so I guess the US and Mexico have a lot in common,lol

 

[tsst]

Pretty soon now, though, that WILL be Spanish! So we can't say it that way, we have to say that they must learn English.

My ancestors have been in this country for a while. So I can't contribute much in some ways. But one thing I will say. My dad's people were all from Germany. The oldest generation never had great English but they managed and their kids were fully & fluently bilingual. The culture, the music, the food & the language were fully preserved ALONGSIDE English language use & being fully involved in being US citizens, including volunteering for military service. I find it hard to believe that new immigrants can't do that. Why do they have to speak [insert language here] and ONLY that? Why can't they speak BOTH like my dad's people all did? My dad's family were proudly German-American long before hyphenation, and maintained ties with Germany until WWI came along, and then again after WWII.

My first guess and/or opinion is that they have no intention nor desire to become American. I believe they are here for the free social services, education, jobs and ultimately the nation period. There are few attempting to assimilate, but many think like Professor Gutierrez from U of TX. :shrugs:

Google: Aztlan

 

[jpccusa]

My first guess and/or opinion is that they have no intention nor desire to become American. I believe they are here for the free social services, education, jobs and ultimately the nation period. There are few attempting to assimilate, but many think like Professor Gutierrez from U of TX. :shrugs:

Google: Aztlan

Are you saying that, given the opportunity to become Americans, most will choose not to simply because they don't want to learn English, for example (one of the requirements in a Comprehensive Immigration Reform)?

I have to disagree with you. Don't get me wrong, I am not naive to think all immigrants want to assimilate in the American culture. I work with people who doesn't speak any English. The problem I believe is lack of incentive. They live in areas with a high concentration of immigrants. They can get around with the Spanish only, or Chinese only, or Vietnamese only. There are plenty of TV channels in Spanish. Chinese, etc. The incentive for those people would be the requirement to become citizens.

As a separate note, I don't know if anyone has a problem with factcheck.org, but I found this article named Does Immigration Cost Jobs?

 

[tsst]

Are you saying that, given the opportunity to become Americans, most will choose not to simply because they don't want to learn English, for example (one of the requirements in a Comprehensive Immigration Reform)?

I have to disagree with you. Don't get me wrong, I am not naive to think all immigrants want to assimilate in the American culture. I work with people who doesn't speak any English. The problem I believe is lack of incentive. They live in areas with a high concentration of immigrants. They can get around with the Spanish only, or Chinese only, or Vietnamese only. There are plenty of TV channels in Spanish. Chinese, etc. The incentive for those people would be the requirement to become citizens. ...

No. I am saying in my opinion given the opportunity they would choose not to simply because they don't really want to be Americans. They want the good this country has to offer but that in my opinion differs greatly from 'becoming American'.

 

[wade]

I think I have to agree with tsst on this point. All of the illegal immigrants I have known in the construction trade have no intention of making this their home. They all plan to return to Mexico. I will qualify that statement to all the ones I have talked to not necessarily all the illegals in the world.

 

[Buzzard]

JP,

Most hispanics who came here legally or illegally(again not all) refuse to speak english unless they have to. When living in Florida I was a 911 operator for 8 yrs. They would call up and the first words out of there mouth was "you speak Spainish". My first words were NO. Usually the person on the other end would then speak english pretty good, enough where I could get them the assistance they needed. Yes many Hispanic immigrants, illegal or not refuse to speak english even when they know how. Now saying all this, this maybe a regional thing being all the way on the other side of the states.

A great man once said,

'In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language.. And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.'

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

 

[wstphal]

As a separate note, I don't know if anyone has a problem with factcheck.org, but I found this article named Does Immigration Cost Jobs?

IMHO factcheck.org checks more facts associated with assertions made by conservatives & Republicans than it does facts associated with assertions made by liberals & Democrats.

Nonetheless, I followed the link & read the article. They read & cited a report from the Cato Institute, which is NOT a liberal organization, which made me more inclined to accept their article, as it seemed that they had researched the opinions of both liberals and conservatives on this issue. Thanks for the link, which I found helpful.

 

[jpccusa]

I see... So you think that even if given the opportunity to become citizens, and even after becoming citizens, many will refuse to become "Americans" (the idea of refusing to assimilate the culture and be proud of the American culture, etc.).
I can see that happening, although the Aztlan and MeCha ideology (the Google search you suggested) I find to be too extreme.

 

[jpccusa]

Most hispanics who came here legally or illegally(again not all) refuse to speak english unless they have to. When living in Florida I was a 911 operator for 8 yrs. They would call up and the first words out of there mouth was "you speak Spainish". My first words were NO. Usually the person on the other end would then speak english pretty good, enough where I could get them the assistance they needed. Yes many Hispanic immigrants, illegal or not refuse to speak english even when they know how. Now saying all this, this maybe a regional thing being all the way on the other side of the states.

People that prefer to speak Spanish should not be counted as not assimilating... That is just a matter of preference. Specially in a 911 call, when the person asked if you spoke Spanish, it could be simply because he/she didn't want to be misunderstood in a critical situation due to accent (maybe?).

I found this Pew research PDF report that deals with immigrants speaking English in the US. See page 16.

 

[tsst]

I see... So you think that even if given the opportunity to become citizens, and even after becoming citizens, many will refuse to become "Americans" (the idea of refusing to assimilate the culture and be proud of the American culture, etc.).
I can see that happening, ...

Yes. And maybe a step further as in the slow elimination of American culture. :shrugs:

Incidentally I see something similar happening in western Europe with the lack of assimilation of middle easterners but rather a cultural shift.

... although the Aztlan and MeCha ideology (the Google search you suggested) I find to be too extreme.

I agree but it is being at least cited if not given full credence by some prominent folks, among them politicians and collegiate professors.

Granted this video may have been compiled by a biased source but the words spoken and the people doing the speaking make it slightly alarming.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajkAP_M4ZAM

 

[wstphal]

The question is not, in my mind, which language an immigrant "prefers". Again, going back to my family's experience, although it was a while ago. The oldest adults in the family were never super-fluent in English. They "preferred" to speak German where possible, with each other, with the children and with other immigrants who were from Germany. They could make themselves understood, and were able to understand, English. I imagine, if one of them was making a 911 call, they would ask for German, but if it wasn't able they would say "My English is not good but the Smith place ist burning" which would work fine. The issue I see is whether immigrants, from WHEREVER, push their kids to be native speakers of English. Kids should grow up speaking English from the get-go. It's even better if they grow up speaking several languages from the get-go. I have a girlfrield who was raised multi-lingual. There were Spanish, Italian and French speakers in her family, as well as the usual English. So one grandmother spoke only Italian to her, and interacted with her daily or almost so from birth. My friend speaks fluent Italian. An aunt is a native French speaker. Ditto. My friend speaks FOUR languages at the level of a native born spaker. Wouldn't it be great if immigrant kids could get this? They could if their parents pushed it, because my dad's people, including my dad, all spoke native speaker fluent German. My mom's uncles travelled in Europe and people at border crossings kept questioning their US passports because their German was perfect and perfectly natural.

 

[SnakeAround]

Yes. And maybe a step further as in the slow elimination of American culture. :shrugs:

Incidentally I see something similar happening in western Europe with the lack of assimilation of middle easterners but rather a cultural shift.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajkAP_M4ZAM

In my little country we (as in 'the government') have become so tolerant towards other cultures and religions in our country, we even allow their practitioners to be INtolerant of OUR religion and culture, so even many of the 2nd generation LEGAL immigrants (especially the Maroccans) have not assimilated. They are proud of a country they were not born and did not grow up and don't feel the need to live up to our moral values and standards. Men, we should not have made it so easy to enjoy the benefits of our social systems for people returning disrespect, even fatal attacks on public people!

AZ, fight for YOUR people!

 

[jpccusa]

Article from the Washington Post

Arizona's new crackdown on illegal immigration will increase crime in U.S. cities, not reduce it, by driving a wedge between police and immigrant communities, police chiefs from several of the state's and the nation's largest cities said Tuesday. The new Arizona law will intimidate crime victims and witnesses who are illegal immigrants and divert police from investigating more serious crimes, chiefs from Los Angeles, Houston and Philadelphia said. They will join their counterparts from Montgomery County and a half-dozen other U.S. cities in meeting Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. on Wednesday morning to discuss the measure.

"This is not a law that increases public safety. This is a bill that makes it much harder for us to do our jobs," Los Angeles Police Chief Charlie Beck said. "Crime will go up if this becomes law in Arizona or in any other state."

The delegation was organized by the Police Executive Research Forum, a membership organization of police chiefs that functions as an independent think tankin Washington. The group's meeting with Holder comes as 15 states are considering their own versions of the Arizona law, which defines illegal immigration as criminal trespassing and requires police to request documents of anyone they stop and have a "reasonable suspicion" is in the country illegally.

Several recent public opinion polls indicate that as many as 70 percent of Americans surveyed support such a police requirement.

The American Civil Liberties Union, Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund and other civil rights groups have filed lawsuits to block the Arizona law, arguing that the Constitution preempts states from enforcing federal law and that the measure will lead to racial profiling.

The U.S. Justice Department, which Holder heads, is also weighing whether to file suit or intervene.

Although the ranks of chiefs appealing to Holder included Jack Harris of Phoenix, Roberto Villaseñor of Tucson and John W. Harris of Sahuarita, Ariz., president of the Arizona Association of Chiefs of Police, law enforcement opinion in the state is deeply split.

One of the new law's most prominent backers is Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio. His suburban Phoenix county has caught 120,000 illegal immigrants under a separate federal program that deputizes state and local law enforcement agents to catch illegal immigrants under limited circumstances, mostly after they have been booked into local jails.

Pinal County Sheriff Paul Babeu, head of the Arizona Sheriff's Association, is another backer.

Babeu called the police chiefs' argument "flawed from the beginning." Cooperation from illegal immigrants, particularly those coming from Mexico, is already low, he said, because they are in the United States illegally and because of law enforcement corruption in their native countries.

"Somehow when they appear in the U.S., magically their perception of law enforcement improves overnight?" Babeu said.

"The people of Arizona believe the overall majority of Americans are not only supportive of this law, but that our measure of generosity has been crossed, a line has been crossed," Babeu added.

Unlike most police chiefs, almost all sheriffs are elected officials. However, only about 60 of the nation's 3,000-plus elected sheriffs have chosen to participate in the federal program championed by Arpaio. Meanwhile, the nation's leading police chiefs have voiced caution about such initiatives.

In 2006, the Major Cities Chiefs Association -- which represents 56 U.S. cities -- unanimously warned that putting "local police in the crosshairs" of the national immigration debate would undo the success of community policing efforts in recent decades, said San Jose Police Chief Robert L. "Rob" Davis, association president and part of the group meeting Holder.

Requiring the Los Angeles Police Department to prioritize the arrest of 400,000 illegal immigrants among the city's 4.1 million residents would "cripple us and make it impossible for us to do our jobs," Beck said.

Montgomery County Police Chief J. Thomas Manger said directing officers to spend hours investigating the immigration status of every person stopped with a suspect identification card would mean less time to catch violent criminals.

"We want to focus resources on people who are committing crimes in our communities," Manger said. "If you got somebody who is gangbanging and committing armed robberies, we'll work with [federal immigration authorities] all day long to find that individual."

Harris of Phoenix said he feared the Arizona measure will become a political fad at the state level, leading federal officials to neglect a national solution to core issues of illegal immigration.

"We understand and agree: Federal immigration law, the whole system, is broken, and that people are very, very frustrated all across this country," Harris said. "But this state law doesn't solve the immigration problems for the country. The solution is here in Washington, D.C., and Congress must step forward and come up with a comprehensive immigration reform that will really solve the problem."

By the way, I completely agree with Jack Harris' last statement.

 

[jpccusa]

Oh, and NBC News networks devote day (today) to immigration issues

It will be worth watching it, taking that today Mr. Obama will send 1,200 troops to the South border (which could be the start of a bipartisan compromise for an Immigration Reform?).

 

[wade]

Really? Today, Mr. Obama decided to do something? Wonder what spurred that idea? 1200 troops is like a drop in the bucket.

 

[jpccusa]

That happened because yesterday Mr. Obama had a close-doors meeting with Republicans.
And yes, although 1,200 is just a drop in the bucket, remember that the border got a lot of money during the Bush administration that expanded the fence, increased the number of agents, and improved technology. According to Janet Napolitano, the border is more secure than ever, which I find to be a little too optimistic on her part, although I haven't researched factual numbers about that claim.
Mr. Obama is trying to get Republicans to do something about the problem. So far, the party is the blockage for an Immigration Reform, even when 3/4 of the entire population wants something to be done about it. Go figure their mentality...

 

[Buzzard]

That happened because yesterday Mr. Obama had a close-doors meeting with Republicans.
And yes, although 1,200 is just a drop in the bucket, remember that the border got a lot of money during the Bush administration that expanded the fence, increased the number of agents, and improved technology. According to Janet Napolitano, the border is more secure than ever, which I find to be a little too optimistic on her part, although I haven't researched factual numbers about that claim.
Mr. Obama is trying to get Republicans to do something about the problem. So far, the party is the blockage for an Immigration Reform, even when 3/4 of the entire population wants something to be done about it. Go figure their mentality...

Not sure if you heard the whole report JP. McCain and other republicans requested 5000 troops and more money. 1200 is like throwing a band-aide on a gun shot wound. Though it does prove some progress, I wish all the of the politicians would get off their butts and do something about this issue.